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Mod had this to say about Reading Rainbow:
Were you in under a grandfather clause of some sort? Quite honestly I can't imagine T1 guilds recruiting people without at least a few class AA post-PoP. Even T2 and T3 guilds would want 100+ during late PoP.

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Technically, they were a second tier guild. I raided with them when they did "for fun" raids like Ssra and Vindi. Enough members thought I did a good enough job of playing a Shaman, even without the AA's, that I would be a good candidate for the guild. I needed 3 initial sponsors to become a Recruit. After getting in, I had to get 12 yes votes from other members in order to become a permanant member, without any no votes. I had a small leg up because I had real life friends to act as initial sponsors, but I still needed to earn the rest of the votes myself. I started out at level 62 with 3 AA's and one PoP flag (they were in Elementals at the time). I didn't start out raiding the same content they did, but I worked my ass off in open raids and in pickup groups to get caught up in levels and earn as many AA's as I could. When I quit, they were raiding Time and Ikkinz and OoW had just come out. I was almost Time flagged (I just lacked the Earth flag) and one trial away from Ikkinz access. And if I hadn't quit and gone to EQ2, I would have gotten those in a few weeks and had been caught up because they were still actively backflagging for those zones at the time.

They were more concerned with what you could do with your character and how aware you were of your surroundings than how many AA's you had. And I like to think I was a pretty good Shaman after playing one for 5 years.

-H

Hellbender fucked around with this message on 01-14-2006 at 01:36 AM.

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From the book of Pesco, chapter 3, verse 16:
That isn't shitty, that was the point to have them in the first place. They always gave you something you could work on. You weren't supposed to max out AAs, a lot of them weren't really much more then fluff. Casuals just had issues with a few super AAs that became class defining. Which isn't much different then getting a class defining skill or spell at a certain level, just a different means to get it.

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The issue people who were more casual in mindset and who didn't raid had with the super AAs was when content started to be designed around those AAs, aka GoD. When things get so imbalanced the devs have to lock a playstle completely out of an expansion just to keep the ubers from chewing through it in a week, there's a big problem.

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And I was all like 'Oh yeah?' and Lyinar Ka`Bael was all like:
The issue people who were more casual in mindset and who didn't raid had with the super AAs was when content started to be designed around those AAs, aka GoD. When things get so imbalanced the devs have to lock a playstle completely out of an expansion just to keep the ubers from chewing through it in a week, there's a big problem.

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This is my problem with your argument, though: How far did you make it into GoD progression? When it was new, not after they uped the cap and made it easier. If you were in a guild that was working those zones during that time period, then I'll shut my mouth. But I'm venturing to guess that the number of people on this board that were can be counted on one hand. And if you weren't working through that content, how can you really say for sure what was required to be successful in it?

-H

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Hellbender's account was hax0red to write:
This is my problem with your argument, though: How far did you make it into GoD progression? When it was new, not after they uped the cap and made it easier. If you were in a guild that was working those zones during that time period, then I'll shut my mouth. But I'm venturing to guess that the number of people on this board that were can be counted on one hand. And if you weren't working through that content, how can you really say for sure what was required to be successful in it?

-H

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Actually it wasn't OoW that made it easier. About a few weeks after the launch of it, they majorly lowered the difficulty of the mobs in the starting zones. Prior to that, they were insanely overpowered.

My comments aren't in relation to progression there. By the time I was working through it, it was a decent challenge, but not impossible.

What happened when it first came out, however, is that the zones were unplayable for all but the highest geared people. On day one, I took Adam's shaman Jagd, a 65 shaman, myself a 65 enchanter and a 62 paladin to Natimbi. We had heard that zone was supposed to start at 45ish, like Dranik's Scar did with OoW later. So we figured we would explore, kill some of the green stuff, see what dropped in the zone and what we could do with it.

Didn't happen. 3 folks, 20 levels higher than these very green mobs, getting our asses kicked. There was similar complaint and lots of dead bodies around to show we weren't the only ones. Clerics were making a killing. It wasn't a bug. It apparently was designed that way.

That's my argument. The gear gap between raiding and non-raiding was so huge in EQ1 prior to the improvements made in OoW onward that this sort of situation could occur. EQ2 is starting to follow the same path that better and better gear is gotten from raiding. So far the gap there is small. I'm just leery when I see developers focus on a single playing style, to the detriment of others.

Granted, DoN especially fixed a lot of the problems with the gap in gear in EQ1, but do we really want to have to have a GoD of our own before things are evened out with gear distribution?

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Lyinar Ka`Bael had this to say about Pirotess:
Actually it wasn't OoW that made it easier. About a few weeks after the launch of it, they majorly lowered the difficulty of the mobs in the starting zones. Prior to that, they were insanely overpowered.

My comments aren't in relation to progression there. By the time I was working through it, it was a decent challenge, but not impossible.

What happened when it first came out, however, is that the zones were unplayable for all but the highest geared people. On day one, I took Adam's shaman Jagd, a 65 shaman, myself a 65 enchanter and a 62 paladin to Natimbi. We had heard that zone was supposed to start at 45ish, like Dranik's Scar did with OoW later. So we figured we would explore, kill some of the green stuff, see what dropped in the zone and what we could do with it.

Didn't happen. 3 folks, 20 levels higher than these very green mobs, getting our asses kicked. There was similar complaint and lots of dead bodies around to show we weren't the only ones. Clerics were making a killing. It wasn't a bug. It apparently was designed that way.

That's my argument. The gear gap between raiding and non-raiding was so huge in EQ1 prior to the improvements made in OoW onward that this sort of situation could occur. EQ2 is starting to follow the same path that better and better gear is gotten from raiding. So far the gap there is small. I'm just leery when I see developers focus on a single playing style, to the detriment of others.

Granted, DoN especially fixed a lot of the problems with the gap in gear in EQ1, but do we really want to have to have a GoD of our own before things are evened out with gear distribution?

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Anyone who had regularly XP'd in Elementals prior to GoD had very little problem with the initial difficulty of the zones, including myself with substandard gear. People were progressing even before the zones were altered. You weren't used to the level of DPS that the mobs put out and couldn't cope with the difficulty of the zones.

-H

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Hellbender had this to say about dark elf butts:
Anyone who had regularly XP'd in Elementals prior to GoD had very little problem with the initial difficulty of the zones, including myself with substandard gear. People were progressing even before the zones were altered. You weren't used to the level of DPS that the mobs put out and couldn't cope with the difficulty of the zones.

-H

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I regularly exp'd in Sol Ro Tower, both in the lower areas and up in the towers with no difficulty. The pally was often the tank in pick up groups that I or my cleric friend organized for there. I had no Elemental gear, and she still only has the cloak and a mask from Earth that I got right before I left. The Elemental trash isn't much more difficult than the harder things in Sol Ro Tower. I could handle the DPS well.

Fact of the matter is, they designed the new content, that was supposed to start at 45 in Natimbi, for people who had the best gear from the previous expansion. NOT the raid zones, or the progression instances, or even zones past Natimbi (which we couldn't even zone out of on the first day), but the trash in just the starting zone was designed like this.

I don't know when you started in GoD. But the early parts of it were a nightmare. It was unsurviveable in the state it was released in.

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A sleep deprived Lyinar Ka`Bael stammered:
I regularly exp'd in Sol Ro Tower

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This does not count as an Elemental plane. There was a sizable gap in mob DPS between the two tiers. Your group was not used to dealing with that level of DPS.

EDIT: Before you blow the fuck up and have a fit over that statement, note that I'm not saying that you're a dumbshit or were just to stupid to play the game. But your focus in the game was probably different than mine. And you probably don't play MMOGs for the same reasons I do. I don't play MMOGs to make friends or do tradeskills. I enjoy studying the numbers of a game and min/maxing everything out. The thing I just don't understand is how people who aren't Achiever oriented give so much of a shit about EQ, because that's all the game ever catered to. If you get pissed about the amount of time sink that was required by the game, you probably weren't the target audience. You should be playing WoW, because it's a better game for you.

-H

Hellbender fucked around with this message on 01-14-2006 at 10:16 PM.

I remember going there myself shortly after the expansion was released with my level 60 Wizard and being unable to solo even a single green due to the abnormal amount of resists I was getting.

Again, EQ catered to Achiever oriented gamers. The fact that there is content in EQ that will never be accessible to all but the small majority never bothered me in the slightest. Everything about GoD pre-release screamed that it was going to be a high level expansion. People who were unable to level themselves out of the 40's that expected to be able to play in more than the one zone they ended up getting were only fooling themselves.

-H

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Lyinar Ka`Bael had this to say about Jimmy Carter:
So when did you start in GoD? Day one?

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I was in the beta, so prior to day one.

-H

-H

Hellbender fucked around with this message on 01-15-2006 at 11:28 PM.

And Sol Ro Tower wasn't a large difference in difficulty with the normal mobs in the Elementals. Most xp'd in Earth at the entrance, and Fire at the castle and once I was able to go there, with pretty much similar gear to what I had, I had no issues. Once the GoD zones were tweaked, I could manage there just fine, even being able to kill the green tureptas 20 levels below me with just Shiny Bob, and a boxed druid for heals.

But when it was first released, there *was* a rather significant difference.

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Maradon! had this to say about Cuba:
Anarchy Online.

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All I want is a good sci-fi MMORPG... is that so much to ask?

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Over the mountain, in between the ups and downs, I ran into Sakkra who doth quote:
All I want is a good sci-fi MMORPG... is that so much to ask?

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AO is actually pretty good.

I'd be playing it if I didn't like wow so much, or had time for a second MMO.

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Lyinar Ka`Bael Model 2000 was programmed to say:
On the first day in GoD on Luclin, nobody could go past the first zone, and people were dying left and right because the mobs were jacked up way too far in difficulty. From what you're describing of your beta experiences, there was definitely a difference.

And Sol Ro Tower wasn't a large difference in difficulty with the normal mobs in the Elementals. Most xp'd in Earth at the entrance, and Fire at the castle and once I was able to go there, with pretty much similar gear to what I had, I had no issues. Once the GoD zones were tweaked, I could manage there just fine, even being able to kill the green tureptas 20 levels below me with just Shiny Bob, and a boxed druid for heals.

But when it was first released, there *was* a rather significant difference.

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In beta, I remember all mobs in Natimbi being high blue at 65 and hit for about 700ish, which for me meant I had about 2-3 melee rounds max to root and back off if I pulled agro or I was gone. Is that about how it was on day one?

-H

Hellbender fucked around with this message on 01-16-2006 at 10:08 AM.

I dunno what they broke between beta and release, but it was a major break. The sad thing is the extreme difficulty turned a lot of folks off the expansion and once things were fixed, it was a really fun place to go to. Plus the later expansions fixed a lot of the gear problems, especially DoN, but by then people were anti-EQ expansions and refused to buy them.