Pvednes fucked around with this message on 11-27-2005 at 04:13 AM.
quote:
This insanity brought to you by Mr. Parcelan:
If the government completely takes care of you, why would you work?
If the government *completely* took care of you, you'd probably feel about as stifled as a ward of the state in a nursing home.
quote:
Pvednes said this about your mom:
If the government *completely* took care of you, you'd probably feel about as stifled as a ward of the state in a nursing home.
That doesn't stop some people from doing just that; they get on welfare, get money, and occasionally they'll just do some work and get paid on the side without anyone knowing. Hence you get people that are supposedly "poor" driving a top of the line Mercedes around.
Greed knows no boundaries
ben(at)netmastering(dot)nl
quote:
A sleep deprived Pvednes stammered:
Tax isn't forced charity, either. It's more like the government's fees for service.
I never said taxes for things like police, roads, etc, were 'forced charity'. More like 'forced fees', but then again it's not exactly pratical to track who paid their 'police bill' this year and make sure to only provide service to them, to it's a concession that's made for the sake of less paperwork (and I don't think too many people would argue that doing otherwise would be *more* practical).
Taxes to support people who should be out working is another matter entirely. Note that I fully support aid for people who CAN'T work because of some disability they have no control over. "I'm a lazy fucker who never finished high school and I like squirting out kids" is NOT a valid reason. 
quote:
El Cuchillo wrote this then went back to looking for porn:
I never said taxes for things like police, roads, etc, were 'forced charity'. More like 'forced fees', but then again it's not exactly pratical to track who paid their 'police bill' this year and make sure to only provide service to them, to it's a concession that's made for the sake of less paperwork (and I don't think too many people would argue that doing otherwise would be *more* practical).Taxes to support people who should be out working is another matter entirely. Note that I fully support aid for people who CAN'T work because of some disability they have no control over. "I'm a lazy fucker who never finished high school and I like squirting out kids" is NOT a valid reason.
Taxes are taxes are taxes.
They're not really any more 'forced' than any other fee. If you live in a country, you're using its government's services--if nothing else, the security forces which keep it stable. If you don't like it, there are plenty of other countries. Take your pick--countries are the only things produced in the true capitalist spirit of competition.
quote:
Quoth Pvednes:
Take your pick--countries are the only things produced in the true capitalist spirit of competition.
That doesn't even make sense.
--Satan, quoted by John Milton
quote:
Bloodsage's unholy Backstreet Boys obsession manifested in:
That doesn't even make sense.
Well, by Maradonic ideology, the free market is what makes the world go round, and by that, states are the only things produced in a genuine free market, see? 
quote:
This one time, at Pvednes camp:
Well, by Maradonic ideology, the free market is what makes the world go round, and by that, states are the only things produced in a genuine free market, see?
While I wholeheartedly support Maradon's right to say what he wants, so long as he's not personally attacking people outside of flame threads, I think that Maradonic ideology isn't really considered...acceptable in many situations.
quote:
Pvednes attempted to be funny by writing:
Taxes are taxes are taxes.They're not really any more 'forced' than any other fee. If you live in a country, you're using its government's services--if nothing else, the security forces which keep it stable. If you don't like it, there are plenty of other countries. Take your pick--countries are the only things produced in the true capitalist spirit of competition.
The only problem with that is that a lot of countries are WORSE as far as taking money from people who earned it to give it to people who are sitting on their ass, at least as far as I can tell.
I mean, everybody has a right to say where they think the money they earned should go, right? I don't want it going to support somebody who can't go get a job. I don't expect that from my FAMILY, let alone complete strangers across the country. That's where your 'taxes are taxes are taxes' statement falls apart. There are better things the tax money can be spent on.
I don't like Social Security either, but that's an entirely seperate can of worms.
Putting Maradonism aside, the government is there to protect the rights of the public--which includes things like welfare, as well as the rule of law.
Besides, dealing with the abuse of the welfare system is for the judicial branch of government. It's not a legitimate justification for getting rid of it.
quote:
Nobody really understood why Pvednes wrote:
Then pack your bags for Somalia--it doesn't even have a government.Putting Maradonism aside, the government is there to protect the rights of the public--which includes things like welfare, as well as the rule of law.
Besides, dealing with the abuse of the welfare system is for the judicial branch of government. It's not a legitimate justification for getting rid of it.
The problem is that a lot of things I want fixed about it aren't abuse under the current rules. Either that, or you're trying to shift the blame away from the rules to the enforcers... Either way, the system is broken and needs an overhaul.
Are you honestly saying there's no gray areas here? That's what this is starting to look like. I either have to accept things how they are, or leave for somewhere completely different? How about instead of accepting it, I tolerate it until I feel I can change it? There's a gray area for you.
quote:
El Cuchillo obviously shouldn't have said:
The only problem with that is that a lot of countries are WORSE as far as taking money from people who earned it to give it to people who are sitting on their ass, at least as far as I can tell.I mean, everybody has a right to say where they think the money they earned should go, right? I don't want it going to support somebody who can't go get a job. I don't expect that from my FAMILY, let alone complete strangers across the country. That's where your 'taxes are taxes are taxes' statement falls apart. There are better things the tax money can be spent on.
I don't like Social Security either, but that's an entirely seperate can of worms.
The problem is that you're conjuring up a distinction here that doesn't really exist. A form of state poverty insurance is no different than common defense or common infrastructure, all of them will be a waste for you personally if you're not using them. I bet a ton of people feel that their tax money should not go to the war in Iraq or to the military at all, since they do not want to use that particular service, some people in the inner cities will probably hate the fact that there is a police force at all since they're scared of police more than anything, others, probably those who have no children or run private schools, will hate the existance of public education.
There is no magic socialism barrier that you can draw to say "Well, police services, military services and infrastructure construction are, even though people who may not directly use them have to pay for them, legitimate government spending, but a common unemployment insurance is socialism since people are forced to pay into it even though poverty may never befall them.". You may be financially secure and paying into the social system, but someone else out there really isn't afraid of crime or is infertile and home-schooled and is still paying into the police apparatus and the public education system.
quote:
Naimah had this to say about Pirotess:
The distinction is this: infrastructure enables citizens to have the ability to persue whatever it is they want to persue, welfare gives what citizens what they want directly with little to no investment.
A common military gives every citizen military protection without any investment on their side, same for police protection or fire services.
