Could treat em as 1 attack each, per 5 levels, or as one creature. Up to you.

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Elvish Crack Piper's fortune cookie read:
Range of the link, at the point where you get a break, each seperate group is treated as though the others were gone, taking whatever penalties.

Could treat em as 1 attack each, per 5 levels, or as one creature. Up to you.

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That's pretty much my thoughts on how to make the link work. If they get back together, then the link is restored and the character is back up to full.

I'm thinking of making it so that the pack will have one attack to start with, gaining more attacks just as normal characters do. It's all a matter of keeping the minds working together, it can only do so many complex things at one time.

The problem comes with the two issues together. If one of these things (using wolves for bodies, let's say) is a Fighter 4/Ranger 3, what's to keep it from splitting up to become a Fighter 2/Ranger 1 and Fighter 2/Ranger 2? Err, wait... forget that, the answer's obvious now. Make the range of the link enough that the split pack will still be linked if they're close enough to be in the same fight, and then they'll still all be one character. No splitting up into subpacks for multiple attacks.

For a group that moves together, 1 counts as tiny, 2-4 count as small, 5-8 count as medium, 9-16 count as large, etc. If the group splits and attacks multiple targets, they get their normal number of attacks per subgroup, at the base attack bonus appropriate to the number of creatures in the subgroup, and dealing the appropriate damage. If the group splits but still attacks a single target, or otherwise attacks as a coordinated unit, they still count as one group, with all the bonuses and penalties that entails.

The actual link for the group would remain active over a significant range, so spellcasting would behave similarly to a sorcerer casting through a familiar. Any segment of a linked group can cast, but it still counts as an action for the entire group, because they require the full intellect of the hive mind.

Of course, there are certain tactical advantages to this. Rogues in particular can take advantage by earning extra sneak attacks, flanking, and (depending on the link range) using one member to spy and relay information to the others. In general, though, it's about as close to balanced as a hive mind can get. Besides, if a member dying results in a temporary negative level, they're facing a pretty big disadvantage, so some compensatory advantages would be reasonable.

Potent healing spells wouldn't be particularly helpful to hive mind creatures, though poisons and physically crippling spells/effects (requiring a FORT save) wouldn't be as harmful. Enchantments (requiring WILL saves) would affect the entire hive mind as one creature.

`Doc fucked around with this message on 01-18-2005 at 09:55 AM.

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Elvish Crack Piper's account was hax0red to write:
Only if a devout paladin tried that would I not roll for damage to the item (classic divine thing, that for some reason I dont remember a rule being for it in the book)

It would fork though a little, so maybe double hardness reduction?

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Oh yeah. Certain class abilities, feats, weapons and/or gear would allow it, or use a variant set of rules about it.

Hmm.

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`Doc wrote this then went back to looking for porn:
Here's how to handle a pack on attacks: Use smaller creatures. They can share a square, and since they have a hive mind, share an attack roll. When they attack, roll damage based on the number of creatures you have. For example, let's say you're using rats (see: Cranium Rats). Each rat can deal... two damage, let's say. At level 6, you have 6 rats. So they can deal either 2d6 or 6d2 (d6: 1=0, 2-4=1, 5-6=2) damage per attack, DM's choice.

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Nah. That's a bit too powerful for what I have in mind.

As there is only one mind controling the bodies, no matter how many of them there may be, I figure that limiting it to the normal number of attacks is excusable because the mind can only keep track of so many movements at once. A feat such as Dodge will apply to all the bodies (part of the thing it's keeping track of is keeping all bodies moving and dodging), but it will target to only the one person the mind is paying extra defensive attention to (instead of all the bodies applying Dodge to different people). There's a limit to how much a pack mind can do at once.

However, if the pack mind has multiple attacks, each attack can come from a different body, all from one body, or any mix of the two.

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For a group that moves together, 1 counts as tiny, 2-4 count as small, 5-8 count as medium, 9-16 count as large, etc. If the group splits and attacks multiple targets, they get their normal number of attacks per subgroup, at the base attack bonus appropriate to the number of creatures in the subgroup, and dealing the appropriate damage. If the group splits but still attacks a single target, or otherwise attacks as a coordinated unit, they still count as one group, with all the bonuses and penalties that entails.

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Damage will be, by and large, as per the animal form doing the attacking. Yes, this is a powerful limiter on the pack mind, especally as they can't use normal weapons. However, clever tactics will help to make up for this. A wolf can't wield a quarterstaff, but a pair of wolves can each grab an end and use it to trip someone. The bodies can work together to gain flanking (very important when you add some levels of rogue, as you mentioned). Falcons can drop (throw) small items such as Thunderstones.

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The actual link for the group would remain active over a significant range, so spellcasting would behave similarly to a sorcerer casting through a familiar. Any segment of a linked group can cast, but it still counts as an action for the entire group, because they require the full intellect of the hive mind.

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Yep. That's how I had that part planned to work.

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Besides, if a member dying results in a temporary negative level, they're facing a pretty big disadvantage, so some compensatory advantages would be reasonable.

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There are other advantages and disadvantages that I'll try to work out, but that's kind of the idea. Advantages in some areas, and disadvantages in others...

Losing a member will result in temporary negative level, but only untill a replacement member is called found. I haven't figured out how that works yet, don't want to make it too easy or too hard.

Targeted kill spells and effects will be much harder to use against a pack mind, as you can only kill one body at a time that way. Fireball and the like, however, will be able to wipe out even a high level pack mind in one shot.

An actual level drain attack that hits will kill the targeted body instantly (it's now at 0hit dice). If the attack allows a later, secondary save to regain the level, that save will determine if a replacement can be called or if that level is gone for good.

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Potent healing spells wouldn't be particularly helpful to hive mind creatures, though poisons and physically crippling spells/effects (requiring a FORT save) wouldn't be as harmful. Enchantments (requiring WILL saves) would affect the entire hive mind as one creature.

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Yep.

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Elvish Crack Piper had this to say about Robocop:
I could even see a dragonhunter have a shield specifically designed to fork the blast, make it real hard in the center line, and slope downards.

Hmm.

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Exactly, and there are some paladin feats (I guess a cleric or druid could take it, but it's really geared towards Paladins) that bolster your shield. So I could see that.

Definitely could see a dragon hunter (hell any of the hunter/killer classes from the Draconomicon) having something like that.

My general point was that I've seen people with a +1 shield or whatever think that an adult dragon's breath shouldn't trump their slightly enchanted piece of metal, and I'm thinking "This is like getting a direct area hit from a blast furnace..."