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Tristan spewed forth this undeniable truth:
Is there a website or something that gives the story behind all of this?
Well, they're books. So it's unlikely any official site would explain everything... Some fan sites can be pretty good, but there's nothing like the real book.
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Lashanna had this to say about Captain Planet:
I didn't see what was so whacked about the WWW (Wyrm, Weaver, Wyld) outlook the Werewolves had,And MAage's whhle conceptual reality thing wasn't so bad.
Aside from the fact it was more or less mutually exclusive to the Christianity-based system of Vampire?
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And every campaign didn't have to be about the END OF ALL THINGS. There are a million things for Vampires to do, on an epic scale, and not so epic scale, without touching into Gehenna.
You could, but let's be honest: Most stuff was written with the end of the world in mind. On the road to the end, in the very least.
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And all the branches were already playable together, with the exception of, maybe, Kuei-Jin (whom I was never parituclarly fond of as a PC character anyway).
A starting Werewolf would rip a starting Vampire a new pie hole. That's why in the original Vampire, Lupines were so freakish. Unless you let Vampires get their hands on truly ludicrous amounts of silver, they're doggy chow. And starting Mages are even worse, even if you only use first dot (perceptive) effects. Second dot effects (or, heaven help you, first and second dot rotes) start racking up the power pretty quick. The system wasn't designed to handle the godlings Mages really were.
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I don't have a PROBLEM with Longinus or any historical figure being incorporated, dunnno what gave you that idea. I just don't likw the aspects taken on by VtR with so many new 'religions' (Crone, Longinus, Dracul) being put in there.
I see it as being akin to the Sabbat (who believed, at least on the surface, that they were fighting a holy war), and the Baali (who thought they were worshipping true infernals). I also don't see a problem with getting away from the Judeo-Christian centricity of the first game. It conflicted too much with everything else that was "True" in the WoD.
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And how was the ruleset closed?
The "Golden Rule" is a cop out. Every game system worth it's snuff gives GM's/DM's/Storyteller the power, IN WRITING, to change what they don't like. The difference is that most systems also give you rules for how to enact changes. White Wolf, like a college student looking to crank out a quick paper, opted to leave that section out. By the book Werewolf: The Apocalypse Second Edition starting characters (let's say a Fianna Galliard) could take down a starting Vampire: The Masquerade Second Edition starting vampire (let's say a Gangrel) in virtually no time. And that's assuming combinations that aren't tanks. A Get of Fenris Ahroun would turn a Brujah or Ventrue or Giovanni or Nosferatu into dog chow pretty quick. Werewolves have only one major flaw: Rage, and that's actually half beneficial. Silver? Not a problem. Shifting in public? Delirium covers it. Vampires have to feed, have to protect the Masquerade, can't operate during the daytime, plus they have the universal problems of fire, decapitation, etc, plus they can get staked. A werewolf has all the intellectual advantages (Glass Walkers, Bone Gnawers, and the auspices of Philodox and Ragabash in general) and only about half the penalties of a vampire. Mages don't get ass-raped by Paradox around other awakened creatures (IE supernaturals) like Werewolves and Vampires.
The games used the same system but weren't comparatively balanced.
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And Lilith had always been part of the Caine Myth. Lilith was cast out of Eden and grew poweruful in the Land of Nod as Queen of the assorted beasts. Caine gets cast out and hooks up with his dad's old girl, and while he was simply a blood-drinking, sun-fearing pale guy with fangs, she taught him tricks and things that become Disciplines. Lilith wasn't quite a vampire, though she may have suffered a similar fate in the Land of Nod. She appears in Werewolf (notably Verbena, I think?) lore, and I'm certain she's popped up in Mage somewhere. It makes sense that this woman who's had free reign.
Lilith's first appearance in V:TM was 1. In the GANGREL clanbook (first version) and in the "Book of Nod" supplement (as a passing reference that cleared nothing up). Neither of those books clarified ANYTHING, and instead made only veiled passing references. Werewolves (particularly the Children of Gaia and to some extent the Black Furies) saw her as kinfolk AT BEST. Mages (the Verbena you mentioned) saw her as a spiritual leader. But NONE OF THEM made any hard references to her. They invoke the name now and then because it's hip to reference Lilith, but aside from a few questions there was no hard info on what her deal was. Until the end, when it turns out Lilith is a Mage/Werebeast/Vampire who could control spirits (IE Wraiths). She's a bigger godmoder character than Caine himself. But all throughout the system, she's been referred to as a victim at best, and usually only in terms of vague mythology (a sentence here, a word there).
She was not the major player she ended up being in Gehenna, and frankly the fact they had to make her a Mage/Werebeast/Vampire (which goes completely against the rules models, I might add) to tie up loose ends makes my point about how they had no unified model of their campaign setting more than eloquently.
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As for Set, a theory for awhile by some was taht Set originally was a Nictuku (4th Gen Nosferatu who'd been Blood bound to Absimiliard), and diablerized Osiris.
Theory. No hard facts, no real inferred truths. I mean hell we all knew where Malkav was ten minutes after we got our hands on the Malkavian clanbook. That was too much, but vampires have been around for hell and ever and not even the Iconnu know the score? Yeesh.
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Also, keep in mind, that up until the actual release of Gehenna, Gehenna was nothing but vague signs and prophecy. Most people couldn't even prove the Cain myth. Hell, Antediluvians were even uncertain for a time. The actual dates of Cain as a Bible figure don't really work if you take it literally, because other Antideluvians haved recorded as being far older than the 5980 some odd years old Caine would be.
You're mixing real world numbers with fantasy. In the WoD model, Earth's reality is defined by the consensus. Up until Science and the Technocracy took over, the Earth probably was only a few thousand years old. That's what altering reality means. That's why Mages are godlings.
But for the sake of argument, Vampires predate most modern organized religions, and there's some pretty strong evidence that the reason why True Faith in the Dark Ages and True Faith in the modern age are so different is because Vampires systematically took over religion to make a mockery of it and damage it's power over them. Hello Lasombra in the Church.
As for the idea there was a question of no Antediluvians...Uh... What crack are you smoking? The Sabbat were based on the fact that there are Antediluvians out there. It was reinforced with the Dark Ages, which started laying out where certain Antediluvians ended up (Tzimisce was in fact diablerized...which is exactly what he wanted. Lasombra just went to shadow. Tremere diablerized Saulot, who ended up forcing Tremere's soul out and into Goratrix, who's soul ended up in a mirror somewhere, Malkav became a disembodied sentient insanity, IE the Malkavian Madness Network, Gangrel Antediluvian bonded with the Planet, the Technocracy found Ravnos and attempted to blow her up, etc) By the time Gehenna came out, there were only a handful of Antediluvians whose locations and dispositions weren't known. The system always drew you to the idea they were out there, and they'd be waking up to get you.
Werewolf was based around the idea that the moon doggies had botched. They warred on one another and on the other changing breeds, mishandled their caretaking of humanity and the planet, lost at least one tribe to Wyrm corruption (White Howlers), killed off another (the Bunyip), and sacrificed a third to block a monster from rising (Croatan). Their leaders (the Silver Fangs) were inbred and half-crazed with insanity and even though they finally have a great leader, it's clear it's TOO LATE. They were outnumbered, outmaneuvered, and were slowly being killed off. And the other shifting breeds? The Werewolves outnumber all of them put together. That particular point was made numerous times in numerous books.
Mages essentially lost the Ascension War in the 1950's. The smart ones abandoned Earth for the horizon realms, but the War is essentially Over. Done. The Technocracy won, and their primary enemies are the Marauders and Nephandi. The Traditions are done with. The destruction of Doisstep was just the final straw.
Changelings are being wiped out on one side by the Banal world manufactured by Vampires, Technocracy, etc, and on the other side they're getting whacked by Unseelies using iron, Werewolves, Vampires, etc. They're half-breed fey at best, and in reality every generation they're getting a little more bred out and even if the fey is strong in them, they hardly ever manifest, and if they manifest they hardly ever survive.
Wraiths are the best off, frankly, because they're already dead. The only things they have to worry about are 1. The Giovanni, 2. The Hierarchy making their afterlives until they transcend to the Far Shores miserable, and 3. their Shadow taking them to Oblivion when they aren't watching. The world isn't ending for them because it's already over, essentially.
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If you want some REALLY fubared history, go talk to some Ravnos. But then, it makes sense that their history would be ungodly weird and confusing. The Ravnos in India consider themselves Kindred, but part of the Cathayan paradigm.
That I agree on. The Ravnos were the fubared, nutty, whacko guys. The Malkavians are insane, the Bone Gnawers are whacky, the Cathayans are alien and odd, but the Ravnos take the cake for STRANGE. They are one of the most difficult to play and easiest to love groups in the WoD. Love 'em.
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I LIKED the world because though there was this information out there, most of it was still hearsay.
Speaking as a Storyteller, I would have agreed if it had stayed hearsay. The problem was that they post these ideas about how bad things are, and you have the option of it not being that way. Then the next supplement comes out, and the next, and the next, and the next...And you know what? The web being woven confirms that hearsay. Shit is hitting the fan. There's no alternative. The supplements write towards this End, even if your particular story might alleviate some small aspect of it, no matter how big the campaign's scope is, it can never be truly Epic because it never succeeds in changing anything important.
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And my problems with VtR so far aren't even just story wise, but the Clan Weaknesses seem not nearly as interesting.If this post seems incoherent and improperly spelled, it's because I just woke up.
Actually it helped clarify a lot of your original points. Ja'Deth Issar Ka'bael fucked around with this message on 12-02-2004 at 12:20 PM.
sigpic courtesy of This Guy, original modified by me
And MAage's whhle conceptual reality thing wasn't so bad.
