However, I still dislike the following:
quote:
From the book of Azakias, chapter 3, verse 16:
Another thing that absolutely annoys the shit out of me.Ebonics.
Why the hell do you want to sound like an uncultured, uneducated gorilla with a muscular problem that prevents them from fully utilizing their mouths?
We got into an argument about that in not one, but TWO of my classes this semester.
Technically Ebonics is a dialect of English. Like it or not, every single person who speaks the same language speaks a dialect. So from that perspective, Ebonics is no worse than a Texan drawl or a Boston brogue.
Likewise, when teaching students to write, the current thesis is that a student knows rough grammar when they enter the school (children can communicate just fine when they enter grade school, they simply don't communicate in a standard, aesthetically pleasing manner), and therefore more is gained if you allow some written work to be done in a child's native dialect rather than forcing standardized English on all students (because eventually students write to satisfy teachers rather than out of personal understanding if they're constantly saddled by translating their thoughts into proper grammar).
On the OTHER hand of the argument, and this is important for all of you who are by now very pissed, TEACHING a dialect is a no-no. Students should be allowed to keep their own dialectic patterns for writing and speech (mainly because you can't possibly eliminate them from speech on a mass scale, and you're allowing the student, in process writing, to keep their dialect for at least part of the writing refinement process), but teaching a foreign dialect is as damaging (and in fact, probably MORE damaging) than teaching standard English.
sigpic courtesy of This Guy, original modified by me
quote:This is what Ja'Deth Issar Ka'bael is doing. This is what I want Ja'Deth Issar Ka'bael to do
:
Ebonics is no worse than a Texan drawl
I was with you until you said this.
Please elaborate. Perhaps I don't know know exactly what this "Texan drawl" is, but every Texan I know speaks damn fine English, if just with the famously sexy Texan accent to it.
Ebonics, though... uses entirely new and different words for things. I don't see how that's anything like.. well, anything like the examples you gave.
"Wazzzaaaap dawg!?"
"You iz da shiiiznit"
When I hear people speaking like that, I think it sounds rather uneducated. Even a child could tell you that 'you is' is not proper by most teaching standards. I despise the slurring of words to such an extent that I have to concentrate hard on just translating what is said into something that my brain would understand.
Oh, another thing... Happens a lot here where I am.
Someone says something that makes someone laugh. Say, for instance, I get into a debate with someone. I say," That is bullshit."
Person standing next to me starts to laugh and says "She said that's bullshit!"
Why the hell do you need to reiterate what someone says like that?
quote:
Bajah had this to say about the Spice Girls:
Hold up.I was with you until you said this.
Please elaborate. Perhaps I don't know know exactly what this "Texan drawl" is, but every Texan I know speaks damn fine English, if just with the famously sexy Texan accent to it.
Ebonics, though... uses entirely new and different words for things. I don't see how that's anything like.. well, anything like the examples you gave.
Depends. Do you say soda or soder? Do you say Pop instead of soda? Soda instead of Pop? It's all dialect. The Brits use the word "fag" or "faggot" to refer to a cigarette. We use it in common parlance as a derogatory term for homosexual, or in more rarified occasions to refer to a burning stick used to light other objects (it's also referred to as a "punk" which is also a slang term for an ill-mannered youth who enjoys a certain physical look and certain music).
Likewise, all dialects have their sniglets such as the ubiquitous "bling bling" found in ebonics. Go through terms and terminology with someone from Boston, and I'm sure each of you will find words that have no apparent meaning to a member of the other party.
Keep in mind, however, that at NO TIME did I say that dialects should be used at all times by all people. I wouldn't want a black President of the United States to give the State of the Nation address in a Compton, California dialect. And as I said, TEACHING a dialect is a no no. You wouldn't want someone with a thick Bostonian accent, speaking Bostonian brogue, coming to Texas teaching your child to speak as they do. Same deal with teaching any dialect over another.
The issue (as the media portrayed it, inaccurately, I might add) was that it was being made out that Ebonics was going to be taught essentially as a replacement to the English language. That wasn't the case I have a copy of the educational report that spawned the Ebonics controversy right here in my hot little hand and can probably dig up the original source if you want to see it. It was based off of a much older 1974 study into teaching writing and linguistics that stated that discounting the child's own native dialect (IE what they grew up with) was detrimental to overall writing ability in the long term (even if in the short term it seemed to work well). The study itself said that TEACHING a dialect was a bad idea, but ACCEPTING dialects in part of the child's work was a good idea. Some media person who didn't take care to discern the difference (or who deliberately misunderstood for a good sound bite) went public with an idea that went counter to what the study stated, caused a massive controversy over nothing, and set back the progress of teaching writing by another decade.
Want me to start citing textbooks and official teaching language sites? I can certainly back up my statements.
sigpic courtesy of This Guy, original modified by me
quote:
Out of a possible 10, Ja'Deth Issar Ka'bael scored a straight 1 with:
Likewise, all dialects have their sniglets such as the ubiquitous "bling bling" found in ebonics. Go through terms and terminology with someone from Boston, and I'm sure each of you will find words that have no apparent meaning to a member of the other party.
If I were to fake a stereotypical Texas drawl and say "I want a soder," pretty much anyone could figure out what I was talking about. If I was to switch to ebonics and say "Daymn b-izz-itch, dat be a Linda, and you don't fuck wit dat," would you have a clue as to what I was saying?
My point, if I'm not clear enough about it, is that there's levels of dialects, as you call them.... and ebonics is on a whooooole different level from things like drawl and brogue.
quote:
Bajah had this to say about Matthew Broderick:
Please elaborate. Perhaps I don't know know exactly what this "Texan drawl" is, but every Texan I know speaks damn fine English, if just with the famously sexy Texan accent to it.
quote:
Out of a possible 10, Alidane scored a straight 1 with:
You're severely overestimating your fellow Texans.
Notice I said every Texan I know. I don't know many up north or far west. It's a big damn state, you know.
quote:
Bajah likes the cock and also said this;
Notice I said every Texan I know. I don't know many up north or far west. It's a big damn state, you know.
You are making excuses to cover yourself. Admit it, TEXANS ARE DUMB
quote:
Check out the big brains on Bajah:
Hold up.I was with you until you said this.
Please elaborate. Perhaps I don't know know exactly what this "Texan drawl" is, but every Texan I know speaks damn fine English, if just with the famously sexy Texan accent to it.
Ebonics, though... uses entirely new and different words for things. I don't see how that's anything like.. well, anything like the examples you gave.
So you're saying besides the southern drawl, if a Texan and a Canadian were in conversation, they would use the same expressions and word choices to converse?
English man walks into the foreground and cameras turn on him.
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quote:
Bajah obviously shouldn't have said:
Whereas I agree with everything you just said and know it to be correct, I just do not see Ebonics as being similar to something like localized speech patterns. Boston brogue is just that.. Boston. Texas drawl is just that... Texas. Ebonics is -everywhere- and the entire "language" is sniglets. Not just a few words here and there like your examples of pop, soda, fag, and punk. If anything, the closest similarity to ebonics would be cockney, over in England.If I were to fake a stereotypical Texas drawl and say "I want a soder," pretty much anyone could figure out what I was talking about. If I was to switch to ebonics and say "Daymn b-izz-itch, dat be a Linda, and you don't fuck wit dat," would you have a clue as to what I was saying?
My point, if I'm not clear enough about it, is that there's levels of dialects, as you call them.... and ebonics is on a whooooole different level from things like drawl and brogue.
Hold on to your butt, because this is where it gets REALLY fun. Dialects can be broken down further into idiolects, which are personal dialectic structures. Further, each of us possesses numerous idiolects. Your word choice, inflections, use of slang, etc, are different when addressing a formal group than when you address someone here on the boards, or in casual conversation in real life.
And Idiolects (and through them, arguably, dialects) are influenced by any number of sources. For instance, I moved from just outside Boston, Massachusetts to Winterville, North Carolina. My parents both came from Buffalo, New York. Therefore, my casual idiolect (and, no doubt, my formal idiolects) have influences from my parents, and all the significant locations I lived in my life up to this point. However, where did I learn to speak l337? It wasn't around (or at least wasn't accessible) to me in Massachusetts, and no one in North Carolina goes around speaking it, and my parents certainly didn't teach it to me.
So where did I learn it? That's right; I learned it from a virtual community. Before I picked up the basics of l337speak, I incorporated a lot of cyberpunk terms and phrases into my terminology, but no one speaks cyberpunk dialect in common usage either.
So virtual communities, virtual sociological structures (where "virtual" means large groups tangentially connected through a given media, like TV or the internet or music) can also give birth to dialects.
Enter Ebonics and "Gangsta-Speak". And again enter the media putting out the wrong image based on asking partisans rather than the researchers. Standardized testing based on one person's dialect will result in bad test scores. If someone didn't explain to you what the bonnet is on a car, you might think it's the roof of a rag-top car (it's actually the hood) and you would therefore get a question referring to the bonnet of a car wrong in some parts of Britain. But even here in the United States there are places where it's common to refer to the trunk of a car as the "Boot" (North Carolina, for instance, has a lot of people who refer to it as the boot, which was confusing to me as a child having come from Massachusetts where everyone called it the trunk).
So yes, a dialect can be "everywhere" as you put it. It can be divided by socal groups, it can be divided by class differences, race differences. (On a lighter note, that's the "reason" why blacks calling blacks "grandma" is okay, but a white guy calling a black guy a grandma is usually not; thank you Chris Rock.)
It does not, however, change the fact that dialects are all valid when assessing a student's ability to communicate. Grading a student on it is a completely different manner. I trust, Bajah, that when you write formally you don't write exactly how you speak? That's because you weren't taught to write in dialect, which is the way things should be.
The key point I'm making is that you can't ignore or discount the importance of the dialect a child is native to speaking.
sigpic courtesy of This Guy, original modified by me
quote:
Azakias had this to say about Tron:
".....
"TAR training, topside classroom, 1530!"
.....
Why does that sound like sending someone looking for Shoreline?
Or when I used to work at the phone company, these intellectual giants would want me to "cut on" their service. What the holy fuck is "cutting on" service? I would be glad to turn your service back on for you when you pay the money you owe. Now get out of my face before you have to axe me more questions.
All I'm saying is that ebonics shouldn't be compared to a texas drawl. That's it. Nothing more, nothing less. The only similarities they share is that they're both spoken by humans. It's like comparing Tea and Mountain Dew. Inherently, they're the same basic thing - liquid refreshment - but they're not really similar.
And yes, I do type the way I talk... fast and full of mistakes that I try to back up and fix 
But literate and correctly, but mainly because I choose to. I'd hate to see me drunk 
I'd probably go pure hick due to lack of focus and concentration on my speech This is why I don't drink!
quote:
Bajah had this to say about Pirotess:
Tea and Mountain Dew
I left a Dew sit in my car for 3 days and when I drank it (it was pretty warm) it tasted like Tea.
quote:
Bajah had this to say about Reading Rainbow:
Deth, while I appreciate the information and layout of what you have to say, you're still missing my point.All I'm saying is that ebonics shouldn't be compared to a texas drawl.
From an academic point of view, they're both dialects, both with the same merits and flaws as any other dialect. And it would be just as wrong to teach Texan Drawl as a "standard English" as it would be to teach Ebonics.
sigpic courtesy of This Guy, original modified by me
Heard it WAY to many times.
edit: Oh, and "HELLZ YEAH!"
I hate Hellz yeah so much, so so much. I really dont know why, it just sounds so retarded to me. Puggy fucked around with this message on 09-21-2004 at 05:05 PM.
quote:From an academic point of view, they're both dialects, both with the same merits and flaws as any other dialect. And it would be just as wrong to teach Texan Drawl as a "standard English" as it would be to teach Ebonics.
I'm not talking about teaching ANYTHING. Would you please get off that perch? I never said either was standard English. I never said either was 'good.' All I said, and am saying again, is that the Texas Drawl is NOTHING like Ebonics. The drawl is still discernable as English, just some words said kinda drawn out or phonetically wrong, but it's still very similar to english. Ebonics has whole new words and phrases created just FOR ebonics that mean entirely different things to the non-ghetto. Sure, they still use a lot of English words but it's very very VERY much different than the drawl.
Again, I'm not saying either is Standard English and I'm not saying either should be taught. I do not understand why you keep thinking I'm saying it should.
quote:
Private Part said this:
"wait your turn."
"act your age not ur shoe size"
also "act your age, not ur iq" ( i'd be dead if i acted my iq.)
"when i was your age..."
"get a job"
"if you dont do your homework, your gonna fail this class"
"Ya know what?"
"your fat and lazy" ( thanks dad )
All sound advice. Looks like you're just fat and lazy. 
quote:
From the book of Mortious, chapter 3, verse 16:
All sound advice. Looks like you're just fat and lazy.
Yeah thanks.
oh yeah, and heres another
" you dont wanna ruin our special friendship do you?"
<Me> So.. do you have a reason for doing 85 in a 50 zone?
<Them> Yeah No.. I was just travelling with the traffic..
Is that "yes I have a reason", or a "no, I have no valid reason but I'm gunna try to weasel out of it anyway"
I'm starting to hear it everywhere.. not just for work..
<Interviewer> So what you're saying is that Prime Minister Howard lied to the Australian people about whether there were WMDs in Iraq?
<(Supposed) Expert> Yeah No.. (insert 10 minutes of inane babble here that doesnt actually address the topic raised)
Is that a definitive "Yes he lied", or is it "No he didnt lie", or is it in actuality "Yes I think he lied to the Australian people, but no I'm not actually going to say that because I have no evidence to actually support my statements, but it's trendy to jump on the anti-government bandwagon so here's me jumping for all I am worth" (which isnt really all that much if it bolied down to it..)
<TV Commentator> You were badly beaten in today's game. Do you think there was a problem with your preparation?
<Sportsman (pick a sport at random)/Coach> Yeah No, they were just better opponents on the day...
ARGH!!
[Edit:] Cos typing while under the influence of heavy cold medication causes typos.. Cavalier- fucked around with this message on 09-21-2004 at 07:08 PM.
quote:
Everyone wondered WTF when Bajah wrote:
I'm not talking about teaching ANYTHING. Would you please get off that perch? I never said either was standard English. I never said either was 'good.' All I said, and am saying again, is that the Texas Drawl is NOTHING like Ebonics. The drawl is still discernable as English, just some words said kinda drawn out or phonetically wrong, but it's still very similar to english. Ebonics has whole new words and phrases created just FOR ebonics that mean entirely different things to the non-ghetto. Sure, they still use a lot of English words but it's very very VERY much different than the drawl.Again, I'm not saying either is Standard English and I'm not saying either should be taught. I do not understand why you keep thinking I'm saying it should.
What I am gently trying to tell you, Bajah, is that you are completely WRONG about a Texas Drawl being different from Ebonics in an academic sense. Your word choices might mean nothing, or something completely different to someone else who speaks English. Am I getting through to you? Is this part of the conversation perfectly clear? By the definition of dialects used by the vast majority of the academic community (and in fact anyone interested in language as a serious subject for study, or any interest in the process of human languages in general), Texas Drawl and Ebonics are BOTH dialects. Because you don't like one, or have bought into the media's misrepresentation of the Ebonics issue isn't my fault, nor is it my problem. You are WRONG, however, in your assertion that they are not both dialects. I tried to explain why you were WRONG, but to do so in unpleasant language is something I'd rather not do because I respect you.
But you are really pushing it.
The only time your opinion would not be WRONG is that Ebonics is a different dialect from Texan.
sigpic courtesy of This Guy, original modified by me
quote:
Out of a possible 10, Ja'Deth Issar Ka'bael scored a straight 1 with:
What I am gently trying to tell you, Bajah, is that you are completely WRONG about a Texas Drawl being different from Ebonics in an academic sense. Your word choices might mean nothing, or something completely different to someone else who speaks English. Am I getting through to you? Is this part of the conversation perfectly clear? By the definition of dialects used by the vast majority of the academic community (and in fact anyone interested in language as a serious subject for study, or any interest in the process of human languages in general), Texas Drawl and Ebonics are BOTH dialects. Because you don't like one, or have bought into the media's misrepresentation of the Ebonics issue isn't my fault, nor is it my problem. You are WRONG, however, in your assertion that they are not both dialects. I tried to explain why you were WRONG, but to do so in unpleasant language is something I'd rather not do because I respect you.But you are really pushing it.
The only time your opinion would not be WRONG is that Ebonics is a different dialect from Texan.
Once again, you completely misunderstand me. I clearly stated, and I can quote, where I said that I appreciate the information and agree with you.
Not once did I say that they were not both dialect. In fact, I agreed with you and even said that yes, they are fundamentally the same (both dialects, yes I'm saying they're dialects).
My point is that, even though they're both dialects, they're both very very different and should not be compared with each other. I don't understand why you aren't comprehending what I'm trying to say.
Again, I agree with you and your academic standpoint that they're both dialects... I never said I didn't. I don't see where you're getting me saying they're not. Note: I AGREE WITH YOU ON THIS.
My ONLY point is that they're too different to be compared. I'm not saying either should be taught. I'm not even saying I buy into a media stereotype. All I'm saying is that, even though they're both dialects, they're so very different from each other that they shouldn't be compared.
Also, children are born with a knowledge of grammar so beautiful and complex it would make the most studious grammarian cry. However, when written language became its own entity there was a tendency towards keeping ancient standards that, in the spoken language, died long previous to when some student would write them out. With the widespread influence of aristocratic grammar schools forever fucking language departments in the ass in even current day schools, and schools growing to be an integral part of society, spoken language was hence-forth viewed as a flawed imitation of the "real deal" that's written down on paper.
However, reading the rest of your stuff (with some exceptions that I will glaze over for kindness sake) is very heartening - I'm quite glad to know that there's someone else with some linguistic knowledge here.
-The Neighborhood Linguist
The word "rape" used, mostly in online games, as an expression for losing.
Any contraction dredged up from single-digit IQ AOLers. Namely "u","ur","thx", and all that. I'm certainly not referring to someone on this very page.
Oh, and PST, in Everquest, etc. How else do you want to be contacted? Fucking smoke signals? Asha'man fucked around with this message on 09-22-2004 at 01:04 AM.
quote:
I wish Bajah would say this more often:
Once again, you completely misunderstand me. I clearly stated, and I can quote, where I said that I appreciate the information and agree with you.Not once did I say that they were not both dialect. In fact, I agreed with you and even said that yes, they are fundamentally the same (both dialects, yes I'm saying they're dialects).
My point is that, even though they're both dialects, they're both very very different and should not be compared with each other. I don't understand why you aren't comprehending what I'm trying to say.
Again, I agree with you and your academic standpoint that they're both dialects... I never said I didn't. I don't see where you're getting me saying they're not. Note: I AGREE WITH YOU ON THIS.
My ONLY point is that they're too different to be compared. I'm not saying either should be taught. I'm not even saying I buy into a media stereotype. All I'm saying is that, even though they're both dialects, they're so very different from each other that they shouldn't be compared.
Are you personally offended by it? What is the problem here. As far as I can tell he just said that they are both dialects and should be considered with the same weight in academia. He wasn't saying that they are equally as distasteful or whatever you are trying to get at here.
