Personally, I see the chanting of the sutras as a form of prayer, especially when one chants the names of the reincarnations of Buddha (ie. "Namu Amida Butsu" ala Pure Land) but I don't see all forms of Buddhism as religion. What makes the difference between spiritual/philosophical and religion, in my mind, is the existence of a/the Deity. Nichiren Sect Zen for instance, when they chant the Lotus Sutras they are making a promise to Buddha that they will uphold the four noble truths, the eightfold path, the six perfections, and the ten precepts. (Some of these precepts become redundant) Whether you chant, practice Zazen, "moving zen" or just feel Zenny now and then makes little difference if you don't embody it daily.
What it all really comes down to is how you live your life. Do you cling to things you have or once had? Let's say you are talking to a friend as you walk down the street, your friend steps off the curb to continue down the block, and suddenly is clipped by a speeding bus and dies instantaneously. Most people would be taken aback by something like that, it's the typical response. Zen teaches nihility, so we should simply keep walking and enjoy what parts of the conversation you shared despite not having finished it. Why not continue the conversation with someone else? The point is to not miss a beat. Easy to say, hard to become, impossible to seek. The moment you seek satori you've lost sight of it. It all sounds very "fortune cookie" to some, but there is a method to the madness of double negatives and seemingly impossible possibilities.
But if you don't practice Zen, then I suppose you can flush everything I've said down the shitter. 
Let it flow like the unabiding mind. 
Everything ever taught to you by Jim Bob of Billy Bob's Black Belt Emporium is a lie. Now, tie your obi UNDER the hakama and try again.
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Ian Benjamin attempted to be funny by writing:
Well, my question is which Buddhism are we talking about? Are we talking about Mahayana or Hinayana (Theravada) school, and are we talking about Tibetan, Zen, Pure Land?Personally, I see the chanting of the sutras as a form of prayer, especially when one chants the names of the reincarnations of Buddha (ie. "Namu Amida Butsu" ala Pure Land) but I don't see all forms of Buddhism as religion. What makes the difference between spiritual/philosophical and religion, in my mind, is the existence of a/the Deity.
I'm forced to disagree about your divisive line between religion and philosophy.
Buddhism doesn't tell you how to be a better person, it tells you how to - to paraphrase - free your eternal soul. There are higher beings, lower beings, realms of eternal suffering, realms of eternal reward, ideas about what happens after death, etc. All things that religions tend to encompass.
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Vorbis had this to say:
I'm forced to disagree about your divisive line between religion and philosophy.Buddhism doesn't tell you how to be a better person, it tells you how to - to paraphrase - free your eternal soul. There are higher beings, lower beings, realms of eternal suffering, realms of eternal reward, ideas about what happens after death, etc. All things that religions tend to encompass.
Once again, it depends entirely on which Buddhism we are talking about. Reincarnation to some Buddhists is metaphorical and not literal at all, higher and lower beings (what do you mean by these terms?) are not how I would describe relationship between the Boddhisattvas and unenlightened. Many Buddhists don't believe in a God, or an afterlife. Some Zen has very much to do with being a "better person", but then we might have to define that term further as well. Either way, this is how I see the difference.
Everything ever taught to you by Jim Bob of Billy Bob's Black Belt Emporium is a lie. Now, tie your obi UNDER the hakama and try again.
It sucks, because it really colors my perception of the people who do it out of a real desire to follow the teachings, or the philosophies, or whatever. I understand that everybody wants to be cool, but most of the people who say they follow this shit don't even know what it means. Reading a few books isn't going to teach you all about the path to inner peace, I promise.
But anybody who calls themself a vegan is just dumb. Anybody who's trying to be a vegan but just 'can't seem to manage it' are dumb and in it for all the wrong reasons anyway.
/rant off 
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Ian Benjamin had this to say about Cuba:
Once again, it depends entirely on which Buddhism we are talking about. Reincarnation to some Buddhists is metaphorical and not literal at all, higher and lower beings (what do you mean by these terms?) are not how I would describe relationship between the Boddhisattvas and unenlightened. Many Buddhists don't believe in a God, or an afterlife. Some Zen has very much to do with being a "better person", but then we might have to define that term further as well. Either way, this is how I see the difference.
I never much looked at Zen Buddhism, I must admit, so I keep forgetting about it. Mostly I can only speak about Tibetan Buddhism in particular, but also others of its tradition.
There are "gods" that are often prayed to in order to keep someone from straying. Temptations are personified and called demons. Then the people are inbetween, and the Bodhisattvas are sitting on the sidelines playing their part.
By "an afterlife" I meant that there is some ultimate end-goal to practicing Buddhism. There's a reason for the ascetics to give everything up.
Oh, and I'm sad. My carefully constructed ruse has been utterly dismantled. I'm a vegetarian and a Hindu simply because it's cool to be "eastern" and stuff. I'm just doing it to get chicks-oh snap! Vorbis fucked around with this message on 08-03-2004 at 04:24 PM.
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Suddar had this to say:It sucks, because it really colors my perception of the people who do it out of a real desire to follow the teachings, or the philosophies, or whatever. I understand that everybody wants to be cool, but most of the people who say they follow this shit don't even know what it means. Reading a few books isn't going to teach you all about the path to inner peace, I promise.
I've noticed that trend also. It was big in Hollywood for a while to be Zen/Buddhist or Hindu because it set you apart. (That's a great reason isn't it?) I'm counting the days until Madonna takes up Zoroastrianism on a whim. (Has she already? It's so hard to keep up with the Hip-Celebrity fads 
) Literature is helpful, especially sutras and koan, but I agree that it takes much more than that to get the big picture.
Everything ever taught to you by Jim Bob of Billy Bob's Black Belt Emporium is a lie. Now, tie your obi UNDER the hakama and try again.
There's probably some religious laws against that, but we tend to do it anyhow.
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Suddar had this to say about Robocop:
Right now everybody's Buddhist, Hindu, or some other eastern religion. And they're all vegan. And they don't even know why.It sucks, because it really colors my perception of the people who do it out of a real desire to follow the teachings, or the philosophies, or whatever. I understand that everybody wants to be cool, but most of the people who say they follow this shit don't even know what it means. Reading a few books isn't going to teach you all about the path to inner peace, I promise.
But anybody who calls themself a vegan is just dumb. Anybody who's trying to be a vegan but just 'can't seem to manage it' are dumb and in it for all the wrong reasons anyway.
/rant off
Yeah, I was going to stay out of this for that very reason. I didn't want to be labled one of those people just doing it "to be cool" or "to be more azn"
Oh well. I was tired. 
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Fizodeth painfully thought these words up:
Screw that, I'm agnostic and I eat lots of meat.
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And I was all like 'Oh yeah?' and Mr. Parcelan was all like:
With Catholicism, we eat lots of meat, have lots of sex and drink lots of wine
There's probably some religious laws against that, but we tend to do it anyhow.
Go Protestant, It's like the church, whith out rome, and silly rules... well at least most of the Protestant religons are.
I don't need religion really, I fish I say my Sunday prayers 3 miles east " O Lord, Please let me catch this fish"
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Peter was naked while typing this:
Go Protestant, It's like the church, whith out rome, and silly rules... well at least most of the Protestant religons are.
I don't need religion really, I fishI say my Sunday prayers 3 miles east " O Lord, Please let me catch this fish"
I would, except for the fact that, according to my religion, you'll burn in hellfire!
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Pvednes had this to say about dark elf butts:
In my experience catholics are generally a lot more fun than protestants.
We like you, too!
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Karnaj had this to say about Jimmy Carter:
I blame the public school system. Or, if he went to private school, the private school system. Either way, science is one of the most dicked over subjects outside of a university setting.
So is math, English, and philosophy. Vernaltemptress fucked around with this message on 08-04-2004 at 01:57 AM.
- - -At least they were in my high school.
