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Bloodsageing:
Why is it not imposing on my rights that my taxes have to go toward financing or repairing the damage from their stupidity? Why is it somehow their right that I pay a share of the consequences of their actions?
This particular complaint is bordering another issue - the issue of social healthcare. If healthcare were completely commercialized, as I would have it, this would not be the case.
Socialized healthcare is a violation of personal freedom regardless of whether or not the costs go toward people who don't wear seatbelts.
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If only Maradon! hadn't said this:
No, not really.What you're saying is that it's ok to violate personal freedom so long as the violation is easy to tolerate.
No, I'm saying that it's ok to legislate personal saftey regulations as long as the regulation is reasonable and easy to follow.
By your logic the government shouldn't require construction workers on high rises to wear saftey harnesses and hard hats.
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Bloodsageing:
You're operating under the mistaken (or at least arguable) assumption that requiring seatbelts violates rights.
No I'm not, read my previous explanation of how seatbelt laws are not violations of personal rights. First post I made in this thread.
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Over the mountain, in between the ups and downs, I ran into Blindy who doth quote:
No, I'm saying that it's ok to legislate personal saftey regulations as long as the regulation is reasonable and easy to follow.
All you did was rephrase exactly what I said. Like I said before, any violation of personal freedom is fundamentally opposed to the founding principles of this country, regardless of how easy it is for the public to tolerate, how little time it consumes, or how great it's benefit.
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By your logic the government shouldn't require construction workers on high rises to wear saftey harnesses and hard hats.
If they are employed or contracted by the government, then they should. Re-read my first post in this thread to understand why. If they are not employed or contracted by the government, then no, no legislation to force them to wear hardhats or safety harnesses should exist, such an issue should be handled by the private contractor's policies, however it would be reasonable for legislation to exist to force private contractors to provide such safety devices for their employees. Maradon! fucked around with this message on 07-21-2004 at 01:59 PM.
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Maradon! spewed forth this undeniable truth:
No I'm not, read my previous explanation of how seatbelt laws are not violations of personal rights. First post I made in this thread.
Then why have you followed that assertion with several posts to the contrary. And please don't attempt to split hairs by distinguishing between "personal freedoms enshrined in constitutional goodness" and "rights"; you're using them indistinguishably.
If the laws and their enforcement aren't a violation of anyone's rights, there's no problem, pretty much by definition. "It makes perfect logical sense, it's legal, and it doesn't infringe on anyone's rights. . .but it's morally reprehensible and spits on the values upon which our nation was founded," is a silly statement on the face of it. But that's what you're asserting.
--Satan, quoted by John Milton
Then again, I'm an evil pot-smoking hippie, too, so I guess that's not all that much of a surprise.
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Maradon! had this to say about Optimus Prime:
Actually that's not entirely true. Driving is not a revokable privilege. You do have a right to drive, even without seatbelts, even without a liscense. These things only come into play if you plan to drive on a public road, because doing so without a desgree of competence is unduely hazardous to everyone else on the road. This is why things that are not street legal like dirtbikes and ATV's don't require a liscense.
Normally I agree with you on some points, but this one I do not. From experience in multiple states, and recent legislation going through, at least the california legislature, to make it manditory for a licence to drive anything except bicycles, scooters w/o motors, and the like of human powered vehicles.
As it stands, a licence to drive can be revoked in many circumstances. It is a privledge. A speeding ticket, if proven at a certain speed, will have your licence revoked. Saying you have a right to drive is non-exsistent. It's a privledge given to you by the government. if they said no more cars, then by god, we won't be drivin much any more.
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Taylen had this to say about Duck Tales:
My favorite stupid driving moment recently is watching the motorbike rider doing wheelies on the highway at 50+mph.
...That sounds like fun to me. 
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Razor came out of the closet to say:
Saying you have a right to drive is non-exsistent. It's a privledge given to you by the government.
Even if you don't have a license, you're perfectly free to drive around all you want on your own private property -- and even unless there's a reason not to, your right to drive on roads cannot be revoked. The only reason there'd be a reason for that right to be denied to you is because driving on public roads is regulated for public safety reasons as your actions place other people in danger -- not for reasons of "privilege".
Privileges are granted to the government by the people, not to the people by the government. Drysart fucked around with this message on 07-21-2004 at 07:08 PM.
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Vinven D`Slyfox had this to say about Reading Rainbow:
its to protect the stupid people who dont realize they should wear one
my father says that if we didnt have all these protection laws about that sort of thing then all the stupid people would die out because of stupid things and therefore the human race would evolve kind of and the only people left would be smart people.
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ACES! Another post by sepia:
my father says that if we didnt have all these protection laws about that sort of thing then all the stupid people would die out because of stupid things and therefore the human race would evolve kind of and the only people left would be smart people.
...
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This one time, at Taylen camp:
My favorite stupid driving moment recently is watching the motorbike rider doing wheelies on the highway at 50+mph.
My dad saw someone like that recently. Had no helmet, no pads and was just wearing a t-shirt and shorts.
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Check out the big brain on sepia!
my father says that if we didnt have all these protection laws about that sort of thing then all the stupid people would die out because of stupid things and therefore the human race would evolve kind of and the only people left would be smart people.
Only one thing wrong with that theory. Stupid people breed like rabbits. Their procreation actually manages to outpace their mortality from their own stupidity.
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Azrael Heavenblade had this to say about the Spice Girls:
I can't remember which state had this roadsign, but this should be everywhere, "Click-it, or ticket!"
That would be Texas.
On another note, practically everyone I see on a motorcycle while on the road are stupid people who think they always have the right of way over everyone else.
One saturday while heading to my weekly card tournament, I turned onto the access road to the freeway, into the left-hand lane.
Two motorcyclists turned onto the access road from a service station into the right-hand lane.
The on-ramp was right in front of me, so I began accelerating to get up-to-speed for the freeway. What do the motorcyclists do? Cut across RIGHT IN FRONT OF ME, across my lane, into the ramp in front of me, and don't even bother to accelerate up to speed.
I had to slam on my brakes to not send two sacks of organ donations to the hospital. My breaks aren't THAT good. I'm talking maybe two yards in distance from them.
Neither were wearing helmets.
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Densetsu got bored and wrote this:
That would be Texas.
PA ran ad-campaings for "click it, or ticket!" too. Lots of states did.
And, thinking about Drys's post. It's not Legal, but if you drive, unlicensed, uninsured on like, the Freeway or a regular road or something, and you follow all the rules and are courteus and whatnot, no one would even know you didn't have a license.
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And I was all like 'Oh yeah?' and OtakuPenguin was all like:
And, thinking about Drys's post. It's not Legal, but if you drive, unlicensed, uninsured on like, the Freeway or a regular road or something, and you follow all the rules and are courteus and whatnot, no one would even know you didn't have a license.
Untill you get hit by someone else. Then everyone will know, and I'm sure that the person that hit you and their insurance company will try to place the blame for the accident upon the unlicensed and uninsured driver (you).
Also, the fees for the license are supposed to go towards maitaining the roads and all the stuff that goes with them and the DoT. To drive without paying those fees is kinda unfair to everyone that does pay them.
My parents did the smart thing : Me and my sister don't get along. I mean, two of us in the same room for more than an hour, and there's going to be fighting. Possibly ending with her in tears, as she's really unable to hit me hard enough to put me in tears
But my parents figured the easiest way to get us to buckle, was to make it a contest when we were young. See who can buckle up first. And it worked.
And now, when I drive my car without a seatbelt, it feels -WEIRD-. I can't drive more than a mile at most before I put it on simply because it bugs me not having it on.
It takes time to buckle up? Like two seconds out of your life to possibly SAVE it is too much.
Uncomfortable? Would you rather be dead?
Buckling up is a reflex for me. It's something I do while turning the key in the ignition.
Likewise about using turn signals. Relfex for me. What's the deal about people refusing to use turn signals?
"WE'VE GOT OUR RIGHTS!"
"...why don't you exercise your right to shut the fuck up."
"THIS MAN HAS VIOLATED MY RIGHTS!"
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Maradon! attempted to be funny by writing:
This particular complaint is bordering another issue - the issue of social healthcare. If healthcare were completely commercialized, as I would have it, this would not be the case.Socialized healthcare is a violation of personal freedom regardless of whether or not the costs go toward people who don't wear seatbelts.
Socialized healthcare violates one's freedom to go without health coverage. That freedom is a freedom that I want everyone denied, because the benefits outweigh any and all drawbacks. Hurray for iron fisted health coverage!
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Pvednes attempted to be funny by writing:
Socialized healthcare violates one's freedom to go without health coverage. That freedom is a freedom that I want everyone denied, because the benefits outweigh any and all drawbacks. Hurray for iron fisted health coverage!
Yeah, it's okay if you don't mind substandard care by underpaid workers in a hopelessly bureaucratic system.
--Satan, quoted by John Milton
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And I was all like 'Oh yeah?' and Bloodsage was all like:
Yeah, it's okay if you don't mind substandard care by underpaid workers in a hopelessly bureaucratic system.
Better than nothing.
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Densetsu impressed everyone with:
I don't see what the big fucking deal about not putting on a seatbelt is, anyway.It takes time to buckle up? Like two seconds out of your life to possibly SAVE it is too much.
Uncomfortable? Would you rather be dead?
Buckling up is a reflex for me. It's something I do while turning the key in the ignition.
Likewise about using turn signals. Relfex for me. What's the deal about people refusing to use turn signals?
I'm the same way, with both.
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Pvednes thought about the meaning of life:
Better than nothing.
But it's not better than what most people already have. To take care of those without insurance, we'd have to lower everyone else's standards if we use your solution.
--Satan, quoted by John Milton
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Bloodsage had this to say about Knight Rider:
You're operating under the mistaken (or at least arguable) assumption that requiring seatbelts violates rights.
Seatbelts violate your right to fly through your windshield in an accident!
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Bloodsage came out of the closet to say:
But it's not better than what most people already have. To take care of those without insurance, we'd have to lower everyone else's standards if we use your solution.
There's nothing stopping you from buying your own, better insurance.
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Drysart had this to say about Optimus Prime:
There's nothing stopping you from buying your own, better insurance.
While continuing to pay for the subpar service you aren't using.
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Arttemis came out of the closet to say:
While continuing to pay for the subpar service you aren't using.
I take it you're against public education then?
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Drysart had this to say about Cuba:
I take it you're against public education then?
If a completely privatized system could put out better results, then yes.
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Drysart was naked while typing this:
Even if you don't have a license, you're perfectly free to drive around all you want on your own private property -- and even unless there's a reason not to, your right to drive on roads cannot be revoked. The only reason there'd be a reason for that right to be denied to you is because driving on public roads is regulated for public safety reasons as your actions place other people in danger -- not for reasons of "privilege".Privileges are granted to the government by the people, not to the people by the government.
Uh.. I still think it's a privilege to drive on Public Highways. If public access and allowance was given to the people on public roads, all hell would break lose. I also don't recall any mention of the right to drive anywhere in codes or regulations. Even Chariots and Wagons were regulated when using emprial, state, governmental roads, long before we had automobiles.
If that was the case, then, if I lived near a highway, and I personally thought there were too many speeding reckless drivers going by, possibly harmful to my family, I should have the right to go out and build my own speedbumps across the highway.
Public, state-maintained roads have laws about usage.
sigpic courtesy of This Guy, original modified by me
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Waisz had this to say about Reading Rainbow:
Besides, I know of no proof that stupid is genetic. It might be environmental; stupid parents might raise stupid babies, but the same baby raised differently could come out really smart.
Cept for those tests involving identical twins seperated at birth that both end up in the same IQ range and comparable in other things.
Enviroment factors into it, but genetics is the primary bit.
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Bloodsage had this to say about Punky Brewster:
But it's not better than what most people already have. To take care of those without insurance, we'd have to lower everyone else's standards if we use your solution.
Bulk-billing works very well, actually...essentially what happens (or what is supposed to happen, since before the current federal government broke it) is that the public pays the majority of the medical bills. The best of both worlds, the quality of the medical facilities plus everyone gets to use them. Bureaucracy in it is rather unavoidable, but bureaucracy is preferable to leaving a third of the population without any at all. Pvednes fucked around with this message on 07-24-2004 at 01:25 AM.
This provides a good summary of it. Better than mine, in any case.
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Faelynn LeAndris came out of the closet to say:
If that was the case, then, if I lived near a highway, and I personally thought there were too many speeding reckless drivers going by, possibly harmful to my family, I should have the right to go out and build my own speedbumps across the highway.
Usage of public roadways is regulated by the government with the permission of the people in order to ensure public safety. I'm going to guess that placing your own speed bumps on the road violates those regulations. And if the people wanted to change those regulations to allow privately-placed speed bumps, all they'd have to do is pass a referendum and it would happen.
The right remains with the people; it's just been entrusted to the government to prevent a tragedy of the commons.
