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Talonus had this to say about (_|_):
Interesting how the biggest FFXI detractors either quit very quickly or powergamed and burned out very quickly...
I played for several months, hell I even gave it a return shot as you recall recently. I still hated it, and couldn't get back into it. It was just plain dull. 
It may have a whole lot of content, but the content doesn't mean jack if the gameplay is boring as hell.
Plus like I said, you couldn't really play and have fun because if you don't min/max optiminally you get ostrasized. Which makes it even LESS fun because you are stuck alone, doing whatever you can effectively do alone, which isn't all that great. And the gameplay is STILL boring.
And if you weren't a thief.
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ACES! Another post by Faelynn LeAndris:
if you don't min/max optiminally you get ostrasized.
Yeah, I read about that BS. That pretty much sealed the deal, I never thought about going back to FFXI after that little tidbit.
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There was much rejoicing when Skaw said this:
And this patch was crazy good. As a Samurai, I'm suprised Kael isn't jumping for joy that his job finally has it's role back, as master of weapon skills.
Samurai was crippled. But this is not the place to talk about it.
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Faelynn LeAndris attempted to be funny by writing:
Plus like I said, you couldn't really play and have fun because if you don't min/max optiminally you get ostrasized. Which makes it even LESS fun because you are stuck alone, doing whatever you can effectively do alone, which isn't all that great. And the gameplay is STILL boring.
No offense, but right there, you yourself are making the choice to not have fun.
If you were running a group, and wanted to get good amounts of experience, you aren't going to invite a person with a non-complimentary subclass that is also underlevelled. You are going to invite that Monk/Warrior, because he picked a subclass that fits with his main class. A subclass wasn't really made to give large amounts of freedom, but to givey our main class that extra boost. There were logical reasons people suggested against combos like WAR/RDM or WAR/WHM: You hardly got any MP, even at level 70/35. You could cast maybe one or two spells, then your subclass was totally, completely useless as you subclassed it for spells. Whereas if you had subclassed warrior, you'd always have provoke, you wouldn't have to sit to regain MP (causing you to lose TP), and you'd have stats that help you a significant amount more. This also works in reverse. Say a WHM subs warrior. OK, that provoke is not going to help him because he does not have the HP to take hits whatsoever. But having those extra MP will let him get off another cure, and having that extra variety of spells will allow him to magic burst.
Sure, you can say it is about "min/maxing", when it is simply about not having a completely useless subclass. I mean, I can understand wanting to have fun, but it seems to some people, "fun" is being completely different and isolated from everyone else, which they then say is not fun.
Fae, I'm not trying ot bash you, I'm just trying to understand why you would think "fun" meant you had to be completely different, and what you were hoping ot accomplish in FFXI by subclassing a mage to a melee 
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Katrinity thought this was the Ricky Martin Fan Club Forum and wrote:
Fun = Being what you wanna be and not being forced be just another one of the cattle if you choose not to be.
And you are more than open to be what you want to be, and not forced to be what you don't want to be.
That game called real life has this ability in it too: You can be whatever you want to be! A Bum even! But if you are a bum, don't expect to live the best life! Or, you could completely "goth out" in your clothes (no bashing on Goths here, just an example.) But expect people to think of you differently, and quite possibly avoid you because of this.
In FFXI, if you chose to be different, that was more than OK. But you can't expect groups in the game to cater to you and invite you if you won't benefit the group as much as someone that is willing to be normal.
There are consequences to being what you want to be. You aren't forced to play the optimal class, but if you want to be accepted, it is well advised. Using this kind of logic, though, Every single MMO forces you to play a certain class to have fun. Every single one has a few optimal classes.
When you sub a mage job, your magic skills will be capped at the level of your mage; half your main job's level. This makes offensive spells largely ineffectual. If anything you cast didn't get resisted, the effect would be minimal, and taking time to cast instead of attack would bottom out your DPS. The only black magic spells useful to a Warrior, for example, are the damage shield series, and even then only if the Warrior is tanking.
If a melee subbed a mage job with defensive and healing spells, the situation improves a little. Obviously your party members won't try to resist being healed. But a party isn't going to anywhere without a main job healer, so the only person you'll be healing is yourself. This creates a lot of hate, so it's great if your tanking - except that you have so little MP that you could only manage two or three heals per battle. If you wanted to cast again next fight, you'd have to heal, which lowers your TP and prevents you from doing weaponskills.
It isn't a matter of min/maxing. It's a matter of some subjobs being completely useless for your main job. Furthermore, the game's challenge is scaled such that it assumes you have a fully leveled subjob which meshes with your main. I admit that I was upset when I first ran into subjob pigeonholing. But by the time I unlocked my subjob, I started to see why it is the way it is.
There is some room for personaliztion. A White Mage/Red Mage is only marginally less effective than a White Mage/Black Mage; Monk is the best Warrior subjob pre-30, but you won't get kicked out if you sub Thief.
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When the babel fish was in place, it was apparent Falaanla Marr said:
And you are more than open to be what you want to be, and not forced to be what you don't want to be.That game called real life has this ability in it too: You can be whatever you want to be! A Bum even! But if you are a bum, don't expect to live the best life! Or, you could completely "goth out" in your clothes (no bashing on Goths here, just an example.) But expect people to think of you differently, and quite possibly avoid you because of this.
In FFXI, if you chose to be different, that was more than OK. But you can't expect groups in the game to cater to you and invite you if you won't benefit the group as much as someone that is willing to be normal.
There are consequences to being what you want to be. You aren't forced to play the optimal class, but if you want to be accepted, it is well advised. Using this kind of logic, though, Every single MMO forces you to play a certain class to have fun. Every single one has a few optimal classes.
That is jut retarded. 
No I did not make the choice to NOT have fun. For your information, I played a Monk/RDM. While not an OPTIMAL choice, it wasn't a completely gimped choice either, in fact I was kinda usefull. I was STILL ostrasized because I was NOT PLAYING OPTIMALLY. It's not as simple as just not being usefull in FFXI, you quite litterally get shut off if you do not follow a specific trend. So don't give me that crap Fal. "You wanna be different expect to be treated differently for it." 
Please.
While I could see your point if I was doing something insanely stupid, such as the MOnk/Summoner plan (Although that STILL would have been fun.) I was not totally useless as a Monk/RDM, I was getting to dabble in both aspects of the game Magic and Melee, and I was having fun. Until I was no longer allowed to go anywhere, or be a part of anything, because I didn't play what the powergamers/min-maxers wanted me to play.
These comments were just plain lame, for one, I don't exactly play to cater to real life either. FOr another you just don't really make a whole lot of sense.
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And I was all like 'Oh yeah?' and Sentow, Maybe was all like:
SNIP.
YEah, and my point still stands, over time that makes for a very dull game. Especially since you are forced to play a certain way, or play alone.
FFXI is great and cool, as long as you have a gaurateed group to always play with, and as long as you ONLY play the best choices possible.
In fact some classes were flat out rejected after a while, sich as Warriors. Unless you were part thief or MOnk or such.
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Sakkra obviously shouldn't have said:
So I kills him, stop the poisoning, get tons of experience, but the best part? They let me keep the ID badge as a souvenier, complete with a retelling of the arc when I click on it.
Yeah, when you finish a contact's story arc completely, you get a souvenier. It's pretty nifty, I got a few of them. ^_^
The only way I'd go back to playing FFXI again is if I had a full group of close friends that would be willing to stick together in level and not worried about going straight for the end game. Why? If you don't play your character to it's max capability, you don't play. Period. At first, I really wanted to be a Black Mage/Red Mage. Some healing magic, lots of magic attack increases from both classes, powerful magic from Black Mage, minor healing and fast casting from Red Mage. Well, I found out that fast cast was worthless, and I shouldn't go for that class type. What should I go for? Black Mage/White Mage! Because it can heal good and pumps up my mp by a lot!
Okay, I don't want to be a healer, so I try going for the opposite, Red Mage/Black Mage. Don't do that Willias! You won't get groups with that combo! Go Red Mage/White Mage! Why? It can heal better than Black Mage/White Mage!
After I found out after playing for ~1 1/2 months, it finally hit me that I wouldn't get anywhere in the game without looking like everyone else, or being the same thing as everyone else. So, I simply said "Fuck it" and quit FFXI.
/rant off
Now, when I go looking for a MMORPG, I look at reviews and stuff and see if I CAN solo (something you can't do in FFXI as ANY caster type without a great deal of pain), and if there is little to no soloing in the game, I flat out will not touch it. Do I expect to be able to solo up until I max out my character's level without a great deal of pain? No. But I do expect to be able to play the game by myself, be what I want to be, and have SOME fun doing it.
Now, back on topic, CoH does allow me to solo. It isn't always easy however, as I found out, its quite easy to die. But by using Inspirations (short term buffs that anyone can use) I could take out groups of even level gansters with a more powerful lieutenant with SOME difficulty, but it wasn't a huge pain in the ass to do so. Also, I quickly found out that grouping IS required for some parts of the game (as it should be in MMORPGs) and it is insane when you do go to the areas where you have to group. I, quite frankly, cannot wait to get CoH when the first of next month rolls around.
Red Mage/Black Mage is actually a very very nice combination, especially in the later levels, since it boosts enfeeble and elemental (due to INT increase).CoH's main advantages are its newness (people haven't found all of the best combinations yet) and ability to solo. I give ECers 1-2 months max before 90% of them drop out, like FFXI and other MMOGs.
You'd sacrifice innate defense, as well as the great skills from not having warrior subbed. Berserk, Double Attack(It can score off both punches for a 4 hit effect,) Defender to pair with dodge if you ever find yourself in a pinch where you're going to be tanking for abit. Plus the 4 HP per level warrior is when its subbed comes in handy when things are hitting you for 200 damage.
All for such a limited mana pool, and small variety of useful spells. You'd have been better off subbing white mage for the 1 hp hit every level(If its even that,) for a slightly larger mana pull, and better variety of spells you could use. Skaw fucked around with this message on 04-23-2004 at 05:48 PM.
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Addy's unholy Backstreet Boys obsession manifested in:
CoH's main advantages are its newness (people haven't found all of the best combinations yet) and ability to solo. I give ECers 1-2 months max before 90% of them drop out, like FFXI and other MMOGs.
What? Its just another 1-2 month EC fad? LIES! I doubt people will play that long.
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Addy obviously shouldn't have said:
Min/maxing is going to exist in CoH too, y'know.Red Mage/Black Mage is actually a very very nice combination, especially in the later levels, since it boosts enfeeble and elemental (due to INT increase).
CoH's main advantages are its newness (people haven't found all of the best combinations yet) and ability to solo. I give ECers 1-2 months max before 90% of them drop out, like FFXI and other MMOGs.
It exists in ANY MMORPG, but in FFXI it is entirely REQUIRED in order to play effectively. Period. No one will play with you if you are NOT optimal, INCLUDING a lot of the ECers.
In fact you flat out told me "Play This or no one will group with you and it's gonna suck" yourself.
FFXI was the worst ever MMORPG in that regards, hands down.
And no a Monk/RDM was not OPTIMAL, but it was FUN. Up until the fact you can no longer be a part of ANYTHING because you are playing one. I ALWAYS like playing a bit of melee and a bit of Magic. Even in EQ's Quake Mentality and powergaming atmosphere, you weren't as ostracized as you were in FFXI for doing something like that.
Once you realize you cannot play FFXI as you would like to play it, and actually have fun doing it, FFXI becomes crap.
FFXI is the perfect Powergamers game though. And all the people in much support that I have seen so far of FFXI, are powergamers. Love ya Adday, but you are a powergamer and were from day one in FFXI, so is Skaw, and Tal. Love ya all, even Tal who abuses me to no end, but you are. And FFXI suits you perfectly.
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Faelynn LeAndris wrote this stupid crap:
Stuff
I like to think of it as Communism in game form. Your pain for the greater good of everyone else. I'm just a Commie bastard I guess.
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JooJooFlop painfully thought these words up:
Would I be able to get groups as a monk/warrior even if I am a tarutaru?
I was once in a group with a Tarutaru main tank. Boy did that suck.
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When the babel fish was in place, it was apparent JooJooFlop said:
Would I be able to get groups as a monk/warrior even if I am a tarutaru?
My set PT (which includes Addy) is made up of (Addy) hume mnk/thf, taru mnk/war, elvaan blm/whm, taru whm/blm and (me) galka brd/whm. Taru mnk/war kick arse... just cause they look so cute while doing... everything. Plus with the new level 62 RSE stuff they're not bad at all.
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Addy had this to say about dark elf butts:
Min/maxing is going to exist in CoH too, y'know.
If I remember right, you were the one (you and one or two others) who told me that Red Mage/White Mage was the way to go if I wanted to play. At the time, you were also of the opinion that Red Mages were far better than Black Mages because BLMs die fast and RDMs could heal.
It was a big argument one day, and I remember Kael arguing for Red Mage/Black Mage, but you and a few others were of the opinion that any Red Mage who didn't sub White Mage wasn't going to get into groups.
Anyways, I kinda doubt Min/Max in CoH. All characters can take hits, all characters can dish out big damage. While how many hits or how much damage you can dish out is dependant on which power sets you take, all characters do basicly the same thing, just in different ways. The big thing that everyone WILL want, however, is Defenders since they are the main buffers and healers in the game.
Isn't it a bit early for them to start announcing stuff like this? I mean, the game still has a few days until release. 
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Willias painfully thought these words up:
Isn't it a bit early for them to start announcing stuff like this? I mean, the game still has a few days until release.
"But wait! Our MMOG isn't complete, but we're going to release an expansion pack with all the space combat!"
-Star Wars Galaxies
Willias fucked around with this message on 04-23-2004 at 11:25 PM.
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Willias thought about the meaning of life:
Oh hay guys, theres an expansion pack being planned for CoH already!Isn't it a bit early for them to start announcing stuff like this? I mean, the game still has a few days until release.
It's been out for awhile in korea though.
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We were all impressed when Skaw wrote:
It's been out for awhile in korea though.
Uh...
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Check out the big brain on Skaw!
It's been out for awhile in korea though.
City of Heroes. Not Lineage 2
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Willias's fortune cookie read:
Oh hay guys, theres an expansion pack being planned for CoH already!Isn't it a bit early for them to start announcing stuff like this? I mean, the game still has a few days until release.
Cryptic also had said they wouldnt add playable villians until they were sure they had it right. It wouldn't surprise me if they had a group specifically working on that, side by side with the developers of the core game.
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Willias had this to say about dark elf butts:
Anyways, I kinda doubt Min/Max in CoH. All characters can take hits, all characters can dish out big damage. While how many hits or how much damage you can dish out is dependant on which power sets you take, all characters do basicly the same thing, just in different ways. The big thing that everyone WILL want, however, is Defenders since they are the main buffers and healers in the game.
You're quite wrong on this. There's already been min/maxing, there will continue to be, and yadda yadda. It's already been figured out which are the best power sets for each archetype from extensive comparing done in the beta. They might change things slightly, though, but for right now there's definate best power sets to take for the classes.
As for the whole, "all characters can take hits/deal big damage" that's true only for the early bit of the game, up to level 10-15. After there, the archetypes start fitting into their roles more and more. Tankers don't do good damage but tank the best, as they're meant to. Scrappers deal big damage up close and can semi-tank, as they're supposed to. Blasters deal big damage from afar and crumple like a wet paper bag if they get hit. Defenders don't do great damage compared to blasters anymore, but they still buff/debuff/heal best. Controllers can't take or deal damage, but CC. Things change a lot after the early levels.
And yes, I played my character quite a bit higher than everyone else, as I was in the first batch of pre-orders to get in, so this is a first person opinion.
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Batty wrote, obviously thinking too hard:
You're quite wrong on this. There's already been min/maxing, there will continue to be, and yadda yadda. It's already been figured out which are the best power sets for each archetype from extensive comparing done in the beta. They might change things slightly, though, but for right now there's definate best power sets to take for the classes.As for the whole, "all characters can take hits/deal big damage" that's true only for the early bit of the game, up to level 10-15. After there, the archetypes start fitting into their roles more and more. Tankers don't do good damage but tank the best, as they're meant to. Scrappers deal big damage up close and can semi-tank, as they're supposed to. Blasters deal big damage from afar and crumple like a wet paper bag if they get hit. Defenders don't do great damage compared to blasters anymore, but they still buff/debuff/heal best. Controllers can't take or deal damage, but CC. Things change a lot after the early levels.
And yes, I played my character quite a bit higher than everyone else, as I was in the first batch of pre-orders to get in, so this is a first person opinion.
Still. You feel as if you can be an individual (Character customization ahoy!) without being forced into anything. And if all else fails, the earlygame is more or less like the lategame (Bigger numbers, really, though from your account, groups would help a lot for various reasons), people can remake characters, trying what they like and don't like without fear of being shunned from a group they try to get in.
I mean, it's not like someone will say "omg u r controller scrapper u sux ^^;;" for every. single. group.
Oh well. We'll see in a couple months after release. 
Only one or two of the archetypes I've ever seen turned away. And that's scrapper (simply because their high damage needs melee range and sometimes that takes a sec) or blasters (because there's so fucking many of them). The other three are always needed for a group later on.
That sounds like a lot of fun, to be honest. 
But I'd probably have to be some blaster/scrapper and go for all-out damage.
But anyway, the point I was making was that if you don't go for the super ultra optimal (Tanker/scrapper for melee, blaster/defender for enchanter/wizard like qualities, etc.), you can still have fun in the game.. and won't be automatically disqualified from a group and stuff. You won't be as good as someone who min/maxed, but you still get to play what you want without insane penalties.
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Batty had this to say about Tron:
Can't mix archetypes, silly boy.
Oh. Well, see, I don't get CoH. ^_^
