Alot of this argument seems to be geared around how you view driving. If you just see it as a means to get from point A to B, then it doesn't really matter if you drive a stick or an auto. Auto would probably be better for that type of person. For the person who just goes driving to drive, a stick will generally bring more enjoyment.
Also, another thing that has YET to be mentioned in this thread: You get more involved in driving, and are more aware with what is going on when you drive a stick. It also generally keeps you from talking on a cell phone while driving. Exception being those headset doohickies.
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BetaTested had this to say about Robocop:
I like the manual experiance more over all. I don't care what kind of figures you tout around that show the auto is better, I'll stick with my stick.Alot of this argument seems to be geared around how you view driving. If you just see it as a means to get from point A to B, then it doesn't really matter if you drive a stick or an auto. Auto would probably be better for that type of person. For the person who just goes driving to drive, a stick will generally bring more enjoyment.
Also, another thing that has YET to be mentioned in this thread: You get more involved in driving, and are more aware with what is going on when you drive a stick. It also generally keeps you from talking on a cell phone while driving. Exception being those headset doohickies.
People will sooner have no hands on the wheel than give up their cell-phone because they're driving a stick.
I've seen it happen far too often. 
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From the book of Gomateux, chapter 3, verse 16:
The laws where you are must be different
Forgot I was talking to a Canadian, that'd explain the difference in laws. 
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Verily, Vorbis doth proclaim:
Forgot I was talking to a Canadian, that'd explain the difference in laws.
It is true though. If you jay walk, you're responsible for your outcome in a strictly anal sense. I'm fairly confident the jury would lean in the other direction
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Man, who wouldn't want to be Reynar:
You manual transmission fanatics are funny. For the record, I prefer auto for casual driving, nothing more annoying then a manual in a trafic jam. I do enjoy a manual when Im out cruising, as my corvette is a 6 speed.However, Maradon is correct, a lot of the "manual advantages" are now long gone. Cars have evolved, a lot. Most everything in the car is computerized, and whatever control you think you have by having that manual transmission is basically an illusion.
Some of the more entertaining comments:
No, the computer is far more accurate on the engine then you will ever be. Auto's are programmed by the engineers as to when the engine should shift. Best you can do is come close.
Thats great and everything, but you're still a pussy.
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Vorbis wrote this stupid crap:
People will sooner have no hands on the wheel than give up their cell-phone because they're driving a stick.I've seen it happen far too often.
Not I good sir. I need to get my car realigned. It pulls to the right severly if I don't keep at least a thumb on the wheel. So that's what I do, a thumb, maybe both thumbs, and an index finger. Very laid back.
If I have someone with me I'll pull the ringing cellphone from my pocket and say "awnser it". Only time I'll dare talk on the cellphone is on a good streach of highway/freeway. No shifting needed, it's all 5th gear.
I prefer the control. 
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A sleep deprived Kalculus Kid or Mathinator or Waisz stammered:
Though, I will note, there is something more enjoyable about driving my car with stick since I have the option. I don't have the kind of traffic that would ruin the manual transmission enjoyment.
Which is a perfectly valid reason
I like manuals too, but in the right time and place. That's why my sports car is a 6 speed. When I drive it, I'm driving it for fun. My day to day vehicle is an auto though.
[ 02-01-2004: Message edited by: Pvednes ]
"If you cant find it....GRIND IT"
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Reynar had this to say about Jimmy Carter:
Which is a perfectly valid reasonI like manuals too, but in the right time and place. That's why my sports car is a 6 speed. When I drive it, I'm driving it for fun. My day to day vehicle is an auto though.
I applied to MIT for the hell of it. I don't stand a good chance of getting in, and I'm not sure I'd go if accepted, but if I did go... goodbye manual car.
If CalTech accepts me, on the other hand... [ 02-02-2004: Message edited by: Kalculus Kid or Mathinator or Waisz ]
That said, the characteristics of automatics are their downfall. Since there is no mechanical linkage between the wheels and the engine, push-starting is impossible. Sucks if your battery dies in the middle of nowhere. In some applications, they reduce available engine power, as is with the RX-8.
In the offroad world, the vote is split. For rock crawling, automatics are a must, because burning your clutch in an attempt to keep constant, steady power applied is an exercise in futility. Besides, if your rig is properly geared, you won't need more than engine idling power for anything but the most insane stuff. For other stuff, being able to instantly dump the entirety of your engine's power in the lowest possible gear to all four wheels can make the difference of getting unstuck and having to winch, or worse yet, having to walk for help. However, stalling out when fording a river with a manual can suck, especially if you lack a clutch override switch(water between the plates, anyone?). Downhill control offroad is much better with a manual, because first gear of a manual is always significantly lower than the automatic offered in the same vehicle.
Oh, and towing varies from vehicle, not from transmission. My truck can tow 3,500 pounds, but could only do 2,000, were it an automatic. God bless my insanely short gearing.
For dragstrip stuff, an automatic can acquit itself admirably, especially for eliminating missed shifts. The joke with the heavy duty drag-racing transmissions is that they only have two speeds: fast, and faster. For actual road racing, a manual is necessary. Even a bitch-shifter can't match the speed of a short throw manual, especially during hard breaking where you might drop two or three gears. Automatics are sequential, meaning you have to drop from fourth to third to second. You can't skip gears, as you can in a manual. And I know, most race cars use sequential gearboxes. But they still have clutches, computer controllled as they may be. They're also shifting in fifty thousandths of a second, so zipping up or down five gears is no problem.
In the final estimation, automatics are better for regular, no nonsense driving, but there are still very real and very important applications for manuals. Besides, automatics are not very popular outside of North America and perhaps Japan, usually reserved for high end luxury cars. If you find yourself outside of North America and having to drive, it will, in all likelyhood, be a manual.
Under capitalism, man exploits man. Under communism, it's just the opposite. - John Kenneth Galbraith
Seriously though, given my current knowledge, I can't see a reason why a manual transmission should be better than an automatic one. If you do not drive any races, that is.
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Tegadil had this to say about Duck Tales:
Auto, because I've never driven a manual.
Yeah.
Though when I buy a car later this year, I will consider manual. The problem is that I like being able to do stuff with my right arm while driving without having to worry about shifting all the time. Most of the driving I do is in the city, so I don't wanna hear your "well on the interstate you're in fifth/sixth (varies on the car) most of the time!" crap.
I like the freedom of not having to fucking shift all the time.
edit: I also like how a few of you in this thread that drive manuals find it necessary to be incredibly elitist about it. Mad props to Tarquinn (among others) for not doing that.
edit #2: Beta had the best comment so far regarding the preference... If you like to drive around just for the sake of driving, then I'm sure that manual rocks your socks off. I'm not like that. I use my car to go places. I don't ride around in it with no particular destination in mind. Maybe that's due to the fact that my current car sucks and is no fun to drive at all, but I dunno. I just don't see the fun in driving around like that. The only thing I like about driving is cranking up the fucking music. [ 02-02-2004: Message edited by: Kegwen ]
There's a time and place where both shine.
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The new silverado trucks GMC produces all come with auto towing packages built in, the only difference is that the torque converter will automatically turn on before the RPM's get to low and downshift on you, thus allowing for a smoother gear transition (sooner downshifting). I dunno what you're talking about when you say 'keep it cool'. Heat hasn't been a problem in most cars in years, designs have improved.
The torque converter is always "on"... 
And if anything heat is more of a problem now than it ever was. Aluminum cylinder heads will warp way worse than cast iron if you overheat them. Not only that but sure design is getting better, but workmanship is getting worse. Compressions are way higher now than they used to be. My ford ranger has a 9.5 to 1 compression ratio, my 1970 F-250 has an 8 to 1 compression ratio. Which one runs hotter? Cars now are designed to run hotter because the hotter they run the cleaner they burn, this also means that there's less margin for error.
And as far as transmissions go, you can't look at ugly carbonized burned transmission fluid and tell me heat is not a problem. Heat is a side effect of work, it doesn't go away as designs improve. If you want to tell me heat isn't a problem then disconnect and cap the lines that run from your transmission to your radiator and see how long it lasts. [ 02-02-2004: Message edited by: Kermitov ]
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Kermitov impressed everyone with:
The torque converter is always "on"...And if anything heat is more of a problem now than it ever was. Aluminum cylinder heads will warp way worse than cast iron if you overheat them. Not only that but sure design is getting better, but workmanship is getting worse. Compressions are way higher now than they used to be. My ford ranger has a 9.5 to 1 compression ratio, my 1970 F-250 has an 8 to 1 compression ratio. Which one runs hotter? Cars now are designed to run hotter because the hotter they run the cleaner they burn, this also means that there's less margin for error.
And as far as transmissions go, you can't look at ugly carbonized burned transmission fluid and tell me heat is not a problem. Heat is a side effect of work, it doesn't go away as designs improve. If you want to tell me heat isn't a problem then disconnect and cap the lines that run from your transmission to your radiator and see how long it lasts.
Torque converters are always 'on' but not neccessarily actively doing anything all the time. If you listen in newer trucks you can actually hear when they kick in. My truck has the auto towing built into it, I just push a button, and if I have a trailer behind me, you'll hear it click on and it will auto downshift the car if im going up a hill before the RPM's get to low.
90% of the vehicles I know and have driven since the early 80's have an operating temperature of 190-205 degrees. That number hasn't changed in a long while. Unless you're talking about foreign cars other then Toyota, I must confess I have little to no knowledge of those models. American auto makers havent chaged in the world of heat in a while.
And you're comparing an F-250 that is almost 35 years old to modern cars, not a fair comparison. Cars have drastically changed since then.
Workmanship is getting worse? Can you back up that statement? Fact is, cars now last hundreds of THOUSANDS of miles before some warranties even expire. The new line of Cadillac cars GM just released only need an oil change every 10,000 miles. It used to be very rare to see someone with a car over 100,000 miles, now it's quite common, cars are simply built to last longer. And given how many extensive tests cars have to pass before they are considered worthy for the road, it's easy to see workmanship has improved. Most of those cars from 1970's would not be road worthy by todays testing standards.
I'm not sure what you're talking about, I replaced my transmission fluid last year in my truck, (10,000 miles of wear on it) and it was still a light red color. I hope you aren't consulting your 1970 vehicle for examples on transmissions again.
If you're actively having a problem with heat in your vehicle, there's something wrong with one of your coolants, or your engine isn't getting one of them, somehow. [ 02-02-2004: Message edited by: Reynar ]
Automatics have more things to break, create greater parasitic drivetrain loss, and are more expensive to maintain and repair. The flip side is, when you're stuck in traffic, hauling a huge load, trying to avoid having to shift every .3 seconds, or trying to get a consistant time for bracket racing, they are superior to manuals
Manuals have a clutch to change every 80 - 120 thousand miles, but they are cheaper to own and operate, and when you're actually using your car normally, they offer more control for cornering, acceleration, braking, traction and if you ask me, alot more fun.
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Reynar had this to say about Duck Tales:
Torque converters are always 'on' but not neccessarily actively doing anything all the time. If you listen in newer trucks you can actually hear when they kick in. My truck has the auto towing built into it, I just push a button, and if I have a trailer behind me, you'll hear it click on and it will auto downshift the car if im going up a hill before the RPM's get to low.
You're mistaken. That isn't the torque converter. If the torque converter weren't doing anything you wouldn't be going anywhere. When you hit that button what you're doing is forcing the the transmission to ignore 4th and 5th gear (if so equipped) and to change its shift points slightly, this is the one nice thing about computer controlled automatics, they aren't purely performance based, you can change the profile according to the type of driving. Automatic transmissions used to have 3 speeds. Then they realized that at higher speeds you could get better mileage if you added a 4th "gear" (basically the same as overdrive in a manual) some autos now have 5 and even 6 speeds. However, that 4th and 5th gear are really hard on a transmission in a high torque situation such as towing, climbing hills, etc. That's why you can turn that off.
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90% of the vehicles I know and have driven since the early 80's have an operating temperature of 190-205 degrees. That number hasn't changed in a long while. Unless you're talking about foreign cars other then Toyota, I must confess I have little to no knowledge of those models. American auto makers havent chaged in the world of heat in a while.
My F-250 has a 160 degree thermostat in it. It runs right about 170 degrees. Newer vehicles wouldn't even pass smog at that temperature because the emissions control stuff doesn't kick in until 190 to 195 degrees, most newer vehicles run at about 205 to 210. That's why your car smells when it's cold but not when it's warm. If the emissions control stuff worked at the lower temperatures your car would idle like shit until it warmed up. Might not even run, I've seen that happen.
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And you're comparing an F-250 that is almost 35 years old to modern cars, not a fair comparison. Cars have drastically changed since then.
The comparison was meaningful because what I was getting at was that cars now run higher compression and thus create more heat.
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Workmanship is getting worse? Can you back up that statement? Fact is, cars now last hundreds of THOUSANDS of miles before some warranties even expire. The new line of Cadillac cars GM just released only need an oil change every 10,000 miles. It used to be very rare to see someone with a car over 100,000 miles, now it's quite common, cars are simply built to last longer. And given how many extensive tests cars have to pass before they are considered worthy for the road, it's easy to see workmanship has improved. Most of those cars from 1970's would not be road worthy by todays testing standards.
A good warranty doesn't pass for good workmanship. In fact the only reason a car has a 100,000 mile warranty is to avoid lawsuits due to high maintenance costs once the warranty expires. I have a hard time believing that any cars newer than around 1990 will be around in 35 years like my 1970 pickup and my 1965 El Camino. They really don't build them like they used to. In one way it's good, since the technological advances make driving much nicer, but "planned obsolescence" ensures that you'll have to buy a new car eventually and keep the companies in business. The longer you keep a car these days the more it costs you to maintain. You reach a point of diminishing return.
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I'm not sure what you're talking about, I replaced my transmission fluid last year in my truck, (10,000 miles of wear on it) and it was still a light red color. I hope you aren't consulting your 1970 vehicle for examples on transmissions again.
What kind of truck? and 10,000 miles is really nothing as far as transmission fluid goes. Notice I said that the combination of a small engine, air conditioning, and power steering, etc. is a poor combination. I wasn't knocking automatic transmissions, I was merely saying that there are some applications where they are not reliable due to the high workload demanded.
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If you're actively having a problem with heat in your vehicle, there's something wrong with one of your coolants, or your engine isn't getting one of them, somehow.
You misinterpreted me. In fact, cars today do a much better job than they used to at handling heat under normal circumstances. You rarely have to turn off your air conditioner while going up a long grade anymore. Under normal circumstances is the key. Cars now are far less tolerant of less than ideal conditions due to tighter tolerances, higher compressions, leaner mixtures, and higher system heat. [ 02-02-2004: Message edited by: Kermitov ]
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Standard and Automatic Transmission Power Differences
by, Thanos Pantazis[back to articles]
Ultimately, both standard and automatic transmissions do the same thing, they transfer the engineÂ’s power to the rear wheels in a way that keeps the rpmÂ’s in the usable power band. If we didnÂ’t have a transmission, there would be one fixed gear ratio and our cars would be very difficult to drive. Therefore, we want multiple gears so that we can accelerate at a reasonable rate and have a reasonable top speed. This article is not going to go into the details of how each type works, but rather the differences of the two in terms of transferring power to the rear wheels.
A standard transmission has a clutch that disconnects the engine from the transmission so that you do not stall when you are stopped. Once you release the clutch and have the gear fully engaged you have a direct physical connection between the engine and the transmission. The transmission then has its associated mechanical losses.
The automatic transmission does some amazing things, but does lose power. The performance differences between the two types are that 1) the torque converter replaces the clutch and 2) the transmission in much more complicated. There is power loss in both areas.
There are two places where the torque converter has losses. To understand them we need a very quick description of how the converter works. It basically has the following parts: turbine, lock-up clutch, stator, and pump. What happens is that transmission fluid comes in through the pump and gets flung to the outside. When this happens, a vacuum is created at the center which sucks in more fluid. As the fluid hits the edge it enters the turbine and causes it to spin. The turbine is connected to the transmission, and makes it spin. So, basically fluid is moving your car. There is no physical connection like in a standard. It is this fluid connection that creates the losses.
The first loss happens because the pump and the turbine cannot spin at the same speed. Since the turbine is always a little slower you lose power. This is the reason for the lock-up clutch. It connects to the transmission directly through a shaft at a speed around 40 mph (can be as low as 10-20 mph). At this point you have almost no loss and it behaves as a manual would (from the clutch perspective). This is what is referred to as a “lockup converter.” In addition, the stator helps steer the fluid for greater efficiency. The result is that until the converter locks up, you lose power, but theoretically don’t when it locks up.
The second loss takes place in the very beginning of the launch process. When you are at a stop notice how you always need your foot on the break in an automatic. This is because the torque converter is always spinning. When you put your foot on the break, you prevent the car from moving and transferring the torque. That power has to go to something and goes to heat. Since you are using the engineÂ’s output energy to heat up the fluid and not move the car, you lose power.
In principle, once the torque converter locks, and you are moving above 40 mph, there should not be too many losses from the torque converter. When we are on a dyno, we are always above 40 mph, so why then does the automatic still lose power? There are a few answers. The first is that at wide open throttle (WOT), which is the standard dyno setup, there is usually no lockup because the lockup clutches can not take the full engine torque. The second is that chassis dyno tests are conducted with the engine accelerating, while engine dyno tests are conducted with the engine held at a steady rpm. There is a loss associated with accelerating any spinning mass, called the inertial loss, and it is usually higher with an automatic than with a manual trans, mainly because the torque converter and the fluid inside it have a higher inertia than a manual trans clutch and flywheel. The third is the rest of the transmission. The transmission usually has four other clutches (actuated by hydraulic fluid), valves, the governor, pumps, pistons, and other stages that add complexity. All of these devices and stages steal power from the car. Since nothing is 100% efficient, anything you add will reduce your overall efficiency. In a standard you have the clutch and the transmission which only consists of gear control because the driver makes the decisions of when to shift. In the automatic, you need to add the equipment to do the decision making. A typical performance standard transmission loses about 15-18% of the engineÂ’s power. An automatic loses 18-22%.
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Reynar stopped staring at Deedlit long enough to write:
Pull the emergency break you think? You can also downshift manually in an automatic..
Beat me to it. But I have had the breaks in my truck fail me twice, first thing I hit was the e-brakes. Down shifting would have not have slowed me down in enough time. In one cause the hydraulic line blew, it buggered my whole hydraulic system, including the Clutch, shifting was not an option.
Manuals get better mileage depends on the driver, I get better mileage because my old man taught me how to granny shift cars at low rpms. I usually have my truck into 4th by 35 mph, my rpms only go above 2800 when I feel like putting on some speed or I am on the parkway. Besides if you want mileage, you would go diesel or hybrid.
My recent car is automatic, and I have to say, it's not that bad at all.
My current car is a Honda Accord, and I'm loving the fuel efficiency.
I like having one less thing to think about. It's a major boon also with all the insane stop-and-go traffic we have here, even more so on hills.
So, I could drive a stick, I have driven a stick for awhile, but I like automatic.
Anything to further simplify the manner in which I get from Point A to Point B.
I know for a fact however, that the 0-60 of my car drops almost a second from the manual to the automatic. I don't street race, but I can't say I wouldn't miss that extra pull.
[ 02-05-2004: Message edited by: Lashanna ]
Under capitalism, man exploits man. Under communism, it's just the opposite. - John Kenneth Galbraith
Heh, I don't even remember.
It's a pleasure to have found my way back, I suppose. I can't remember what happened, but it's great to see... speak with you guys again. How has everyone been? What's new?
and YOU sir have been missed much in Fae's games since you left us.
At any rate, I'm glad to see you're well, my friend.
And a few good and few bad n00bs. And... well, that's it.
Oh, and for me, manual isn't an option. There's WAY too many stopsigns - and just too much stop and go.
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Nobody really understood why Cap'n Elethi wrote:
All of that other stuff I have had more than enough of; the main thing I miss is Fae's game. I'm real glad you all are having a good time though, I hope you found someone up to the challenge of filling my spot. I wish I had the time to reclaim it, but everything has taken a back seat to getting in to college. The rest of my time has been spent keeping the girlfriend happy and just generally being a high-schooler for my little time remaining. While I have nowhere near half the skill of Fae on his worst days, I convinced my friends to start up a game and their having a blast.At any rate, I'm glad to see you're well, my friend.
and you as well. Don't be such a stranger and such, lest I come out there and beat you.
Is there some thread or board or website where the old Fae's campaigners talk? I vaugely remember a website, but not the address I'm afraid.
