quote:
Suddar's fortune cookie read:
But what's the point? Everybody has concerns, but it isn't healthy to voice concerns when the one you're concerned over isn't concerned.
...yes.
And just to answer a question, yes Synjari did start that thread, although no names were mentioned. It was rather skewed though because it refrained from mentioning I got attacked first for greeting what I thought was my old friend.
[ 04-02-2003: Message edited by: Lyinar Ka`Bael ]
Lyinar Ka`Bael, Piney Fresh Druidess - Luclin
Lyinar Ka`Bael, Piney Fresh Druidess - Luclin
I had previously, in the thread about the Seven Deadly Sins, mentioned that I was prone to Envy (One of said Seven Sins).
Big things didn't matter to me (some girl with a guy I really liked), but little things could throw me into depression (Addy's character getting to do something in D&D I had wanted to do), and it seemed completely random.
Lyinar turned it around into basicly calling me an admitted attention whore of the worst and most selfish degree in another thread.
About Personal Life Stuff... If it's one of those threads where everyone is like "Post Your Worst Flaw" and everyone is posting that stuff, then, yes, it feels safe to say something little like that.
quote:
And for reference, what I had said was:
Lust or Pride are probably my favorite...
Ones that suit me the most...
Envy and Lust.I have a major envy problem. Little minor things someone else has, or attention someone else may get, can be things that make me want to break a window. On the other hand... There are huge things that don't bother me. But I'm always envious of my friends.
While I didn't mind people KNOWING about it, I do sort of mind it getting exploited or used against me. I kind of felt the people of the boards would be above digging up some admission of a flaw I posted in a little fun thread, and turning it into personal attack.
In that thread, I hadn't even really attacked her, mocked her, or made any reference to her, and had tried to be rather amiable towards her.
I don't like fighting with her, because, really, it only gives a person headaches.
All in all, as Len and Fae said... She just seems like she needs a bit of a break, some time for self-reflection, and it seems like she hurts more than she helps when she is "brave enough to speak out."
And I still stand by my statement that this sigpic is perfectly work safe.
Relevant Links:
[ 04-02-2003: Message edited by: Lashanna ]
Anyways...here we go. I'm not going to argue every single point a person brings up, but rather the repeated trends, with the exception of Lashanna, who I want to speak to directly at the end.
First up...
The "do as I say, not as I do" argument. Here's how it should in theory work...Everyone SHOULD mind their own business. Everyone SHOULD keep their attentions focused on their own domain and make perfectly clear that within their own domain they are all powerful. Drysart is (roleplay/Taran aside), the undisputed lord, ruler, king, monarch, dictator, autocrat, god of the boards. He can ban any of us for any reason. He doesn't like grinding that fact into our heads too often, which is good because that would suck.
Unfortunately, people like to gossip. Now, is gossiping bad? Is spreading rumors bad? Is taking things out of context bad? My answer is yes to all of the above. People shouldn't go behind other peoples' backs and spread unsubstantiated rumors. If someone doesn't have the courtesy to come into a place, be a part of the community involved in that place, then they shouldn't take shots at people who do, and they shouldn't cut and paste cute little tidbits with the purpose of inciting trouble.
Of course, that's a pipe dream. Mort says something unpopular in a channel, he got banned. Lyinar advocated that he get his banned knocked off, but the fact it happened at all proves that the way things SHOULD be are not in fact the way things ARE. That does not, however, change the fact that there is an ideal that people should try and quest to achieve. People SHOULD handle things maturely, go about resolving conflicts in private, etc, but they don't. It doesn't invalidate the wish for things to be more just by any means.
And in a no-holds-barred conflict, anything usable by one side as a weapon is usable by the other side as a weapon as well. In a flame war, if people are going to launch ad hominem attacks about your latest crusade constantly, or reference things you said in your own private channel, if you're going to have to defend things you said that have been taken out of context, blown up to poster size and posted on the boards, then by gods you are within your every right to do it right back to them. Does it make a flame war burn longer? Does it hurt feelings? Is there a lot of collateral damage and people getting drawn in who would rather not get drawn in? Yep. It's a word war. Hurt them, burn them, make them shut the hell up or at least stop and think before they fire off their mouths.
Does Lyinar contradict herself? Only because she verbally states she'd like things to be different before launching into an attack. How often does setting the example work around here? Hmmm? If it did, if we all followed Drysart's example, then the only time moderators would ever need to get into a thread is to deal with new people who don't know the situation. They wouldn't have to get into threads involving veteran posters tearing at each other's throats (a happenstance which, believe it or not, doesn't always involve Lyinar, so don't even go there). So ruling by example is another pipe dream.
It is not, however, proving the point that Lyinar contradicts herself. That's not even a point of contention. Of course she contradicts herself. It's the only way to fight a flame war. If people don't LIKE that, then they should set up some ground rules about flaming and everyone should abide by them. However, that never happens, does it? Someone with a history of having a somewhat different point of view posts their opinion, and people start in with the "Crusade" comments and "Oh she's doing it again" and start taking shots. If that's the sort of conflict no one but the person they're taking shots at will stop and say "Hey that isn't right" then it's clearly okay with them. And if it's okay with those people, then it has to be okay for both sides to do it.
Drysart's first two quotes elaborate that point nicely, I think. People don't like it when Lyinar brings up something that they said on the boards. But they very much like to attack our private business. If there's any "do as I say, not as I do" going around, and I firmly believe there is, then it falls on both sides. Perhaps we should give up trying to find an equitable ideal to aspire to.
But don't give me baloney that it's not right to sandbag someone with something they've said on the boards when every time you post, someone sandbags you with something you've said. Be truly equal.
As for RPCrest, Za, I don't care what you guys say or do in there. What irritates me is that some nights I say nice things about RPCrest. Sometimes I compliment people I know who are or have at some time been over there. Some people who I thought the world of and still think the world of are over there. Not to kiss your ass in particular, but Lyinar and I have both commented on how you and Addy have your heads on straight about D&D. I've always held that when Parce and I were so hostile towards one another, that he and I stand on the same ground in regards to gaming. Hell, I've sent Parcelan questions about his opinion on books. How often do you hear that, though? How often do those tasty little morsels get transmitted in the C&P's people post when trawling for things to incite with?
That's my beef as far as the "spying" issue. Want to know what we're saying? Fine, come in and see it all. We might be a bit suspicious due to residual bad feelings, but if you come in regularly you'll see it all. The bad AND, more importantly, the good. Yeah people get pissed and fire off about stuff. I won't deny it. I'm not ashamed of anything said in #Talera. But when people ONLY see the bad side, and then take that and post it on the boards and take things out of context, that's when it gets intolerable. That's when I personally start on a witch hunt to find out who did it.
That's also, in a similar vein, why I felt so horrible when an opinion conveyed in PM about Fae's game got back to Fae. There is, I've always felt, something of a brotherhood of GM's. I don't go around judging how Parce runs his game, he doesn't come into #High*Seas and tell me how to run my game. Same goes for Fae. Same goes for Za. Same goes for my friend Ric who runs a GURPS game in IRC, and my friend Karl who runs a D&D game in IRC. I may have my personal opinion with a game, but if I'm not playing in it, I don't harass that GM or attack them. That's a no-no.
Now...There are some elements to Fae's game that I disagree with. I wouldn't do it his way in my game. In the exact same sense, that by definition means that Fae wouldn't do things my way. That doesn't mean Fae's wrong and I'm right, or that I'm wrong and Fae's right. Lyinar and I had had a long discussion about Fae's way of doing things, and the point we both agreed on was that Fae's way wouldn't work in my HS game. There were some things about Fae's game that I like, that I find admirable. There are things in Fae's game, from what I've seen on the sites he's shown me and from what I gathered in the (I'll admit, I got tired of seeing constant posts about Fae's game) board posts. Lyinar, I gather, spoke to someone in PM and laid out the facts, and probably didn't put it as gently as I'm putting it here, and it got back to Fae. A PRIVATE MESSAGE, a PRIVATE COMMUNICATION got leaked by the person Lyinar was talking to, and it hurt Fae and caused a shitstorm. Lyinar and I, no matter our opinion on the matter, never intended to go after Fae. We never intended to start a "Crusade" or attack him. Fae was our friend, and to me there was the added Fraternity of GM's thing.
But no one ever saw that we liked some aspects of the game. They just saw something taken out of context. They saw Lyinar listing the faults of Fae's game on behalf of her and myself. And before anyone ever approached us, it got nasty. Suddenly it was like there was a competition for who the better GM was. God that's irritating.
Next up...Hopefully a resolution to the "Dragging Nae Into Things" matter
The example given about Redmage's cheating post, as I recall, came after the incident in EQ. Do I really need to go into why that would be fresh in her mind? Do I really need to say that "people getting on Redmage for cheating seems pretty hypocritical when Nae did it and there's swarms of people coming to her defense"? I'm sorry I even had to sully the boards with that again.
In fact, I think that it's a nasty little cycle. People rile Lyinar up, she says something or drags someone into an argument or forces them to relive an embarrassing or unfortunate post they'd made in the past, and that creates bad feeling, so they're more likely to rile Lyinar up again later, at which point she's more likely to get angry again. I COULD defend every single instance of that happening, but since no one seems terribly willing to defend the fact that they do it too, I'm going to let it slide for the moment.
I think part of the reason why people are sensitive about Nae is that, Kanid breakup/UBT stuff/EQ incident aside, Nae is a very likeable person. She was always very friendly to me when I first came to EC. There were some fantastic discussions had in the Evercrest channel with her and Lyinar and me and a bunch of other people. There were even conversations about borderline naughty things (I remember one night when Nae and Lyinar were comparing tastes in lingerie) where it was fine. And Nae, personal life aside, has had some really nasty, terrible things happen. Her husband is at war right now, she's not always doing so hot medically, and she worries a lot. I'll agree that bringing up the incidences of her personal life can certainly seem like kicking someone when they're down or otherwise distracted.
On the OTHER hand, people get Nae involved in things I don't know that she'd care to get involved in as deeply. I've seen four logs of that incident in EQ. One was sent to me by Lyinar (where she got it, I don't recall; she C&Ped it from somewhere), and it showed the things people said prior to her blowing up. One was a cropped version that Fae, I think, sent to me in PM. It picked up from Lyinar blowing up onward, but didn't have the earlier elements. There was a third version of it someone using a nick I didn't recognize (a lurker, perhaps, or someone on an alt account...feel free to identify yourself if you want, doesn't matter much now) sent to me that was the same as Fae's version. Then there was a fourth sent to me by PM from someone who asked I not reveal their identity (by all means please step forward), and it was like Lyinar's copy, with the same baiting tactics used. Lyinar didn't (and doesn't) go into EQ looking to start a fight with someone in the EC channel. Get a grip. She was showing interest in the Kanid she saw in EC. Whether she was wondering if Nae and Kanid were trying to be friends now that they were separated (keep in mind Candace and her ex-boyfriend Jeff shared an EQ account for a while and when he got his own, he wanted the stuff off his character on Candace's account so they worked out a time to transfer the gear, so it is plausible people can get along), or whether she simply had no idea at all and wanted to find out is unknown to anyone but her. But people started baiting and teasing and no one would tell her the simple info she wanted to know. Then it started getting personal, cracking comments about how if she wanted to talk to Kanid so bad, she should go to the /GU forums and telephone numbers could be provided. A little teasing? Ha ha, anyone can take it. But there comes a time when it's too much. Either one side should say, "Hey I don't feel comfortable revealing the truth", or they should say "Okay enough jokes". By the time Nae explained, things had gone too far and it was hostile. Lyinar lost her temper, reacted and things got ugly. At which point, the litany of calling her such mature things as "Cunt" and "Whore" and "Bitch" started up.
After that, the matter showed up on the boards. People wanted to, rather than shut up and let the matter die, explore the horror some more. They wanted blood. They wanted to expunge themselves of the rage. They shouldn't have, because it was an indefensible position. And when I posted, calling Geeorn out when he wanted to start in, the thread got locked down. That seems to happen a lot.
And after THAT, as you can no doubt imagine, there was a lot of ill feeling over the matter. Some people had gotten to launch a thread to fire off about the matter and when someone started to fight back, the matter got nixed. There was no "burning out" or "burning clean" of the matter. No one explored both sides of it. So when those selfsame people got uppity about someone cheating on his girlfriend, it was a dark pleasure to jam a corkscrew in them and twist. Noble? No. Honorable? Nah. Righteous? Sure felt like it to me.
My ONLY regret was that it was Nae who got yanked around by it all. Any issues there may have been with Nae should have been kept separate from the hostility shown in EQ that day, by both sides.
As far as I'm concerned, the matter should be dropped. I deleted all the PM's I got related to it (and there were more than the four with C&P'ed attached logs) out of my general policy about which PM's to keep and for how long. And even if I had them I wouldn't post the logs. I don't feel like I need to bring up evidence for people to defend. That obscures the point I'm making with minutia.
Drysart and favoritism is another matter that's come up...
I'm not the voice of reason (that's Leopold). I play favorites. I broke the rules of moderatorship. Lyinar knew who the new moderator was, and she tended to direct my attention to threads. When Drys PMed me about "don't moderate threads Lyinar is involved in", I told her, and that's what tripped me up in the end, as I recall. As I was switching to the mod account, she posted and I didn't see it. Not how I would have wanted to leave being a moderator, but all in all I think me not being a moderator was for the best. I had the best of intentions, but I let personal stuff get in the way (in that respect, I agree with Drysart; mods should be as neutral as possible in their prosecution of board rules).
On the OTHER hand, Drys, I'm not the only guy around here who lets himself be swayed. I don't profess to know what went on inside your relationships (not my business), but when Peachis was the main gal who had your ear, I certainly recall more people getting banned for being nasty to her. I certainly remember more sexual innuendos getting more and more lewd (going behind a couch in the old days prior to my getting back with Lyinar? Whoopee. I've come up with more suggestive channel topics concocted out of things people say taken out of context...ask ArchAngel, Batty, Azymyth, or anyone else who hangs out in #Talera). And that's fine. I never said there wasn't a certain degree of sexual innuendo. I never said there wasn't a certain amount of lewd flirtation. Please don't paint Lyinar and myself as prudes. I certainly never meant to give anyone the impression that I was saying we were. But there is a line. And the line got tapdanced over a lot more often when your attentions were more on Peachis. And that was irritating. We (Lyinar and myself) weren't even the ones who first came up with the term "Porncrest". We weren't the ones who first said "good grief why do I even come in here anymore if it's going to be sex all the time". We may have repeated ourselves the most, or said it loudest, or made the biggest issue out of it, but it didn't originate with us. Other people noticed it crossed the line.
And Peachis tended to swagger with her admin power as much as anyone else with admin power might. She had a disagreement with someone other than Mortious and he was very scared he might end up banned or something. He later patched things up with her, but no one should live in that sort of terror. Even if Drys didn't cede to all of Peachis's wishes, he gave in to some and that was bad.
But there's a limit to how much I'll try and besmirch Drys's rep. All people in a relationship, real and solid or otherwise, like to show a little favoritism. They like to treat their significant others in a special way. I'd be a hypocrite if I said I didn't hold Lyinar in a different place in my hear than I do all my other friends. There's nothing wrong with that.
And the board is as much a matter of evolution for Drys as it is for us. Moderators of one forum no longer have the ability to affect other forums. That's a good thing, one that came about during the Peachis era after the incident with the Lie. Moderators are held very accountable for their actions, and that's a good thing. It seems to me (and it could be just my perception) that after the Peachis time period, Drys started posting on the boards more often. At least I started looking forward to seeing him post on the boards more often. That was one of my biggest gripes with Drys; he never stopped to talk on the boards much. Now he does post, albeit somewhat sporadically. It shows interest in what we're up to beyond the lurking way of life.
So, despite the examples I listed in this thread, it's not ALL bad.
And now to talk about Lashanna...
Or more to the point...not to talk about Lashanna. I'm going to be sending you a PM, because to elaborate on why Lyinar is nasty to you would border on a flame and I'd rather not do that to this thread.
Now then...if anyone thinks I haven't addressed an important point at some time in the scope of this thread, please bring up that point. I don't mind debating so long as it's civil, and so long as people don't mind if it takes a day or two to respond.
sigpic courtesy of This Guy, original modified by me
quote:
Iron Parcelan stopped beating up furries long enough to write:
No offense, bro, but this really could've stood to just stay dead :\
I concur.
Now I am off to read the essay!
Sorry.
sigpic courtesy of This Guy, original modified by me
Saying that I didn't use any reasoning? Get the facts straight yourself next time before you run to nurse the "poor little guy that was picked on".
sigpic courtesy of This Guy, original modified by me
EDIT: Typo. [ 04-05-2003: Message edited by: Zaza ]
If people use the "Lyniar Crusdade" (WHich they don't, since it's a bannable offense), then your post about personal attacks would make sense. But they don't. And Lyniar blindsides people out of nowhere with PERSONAL FACTS ABOUT THIER LIVES. It's not that hard not to. Just talk about what the ACTUAL thread is about. I don't see people posting about her and simon, or her and you.
Just because people USED to do the lyniar crusades MAKES NO DIFFERENCE. They didn't now. She needs to learn some TACT, and not do that shit. it's low, it's mean, and it's amazingly rude.
The Redmage thing happened way before the EQ incident..
That is all I wished to set straight.
-Syn
quote:
We were all impressed when Gikkwiny wrote:
....If people use the "Lyniar Crusdade" (WHich they don't, since it's a bannable offense), then your post about personal attacks would make sense. But they don't. And Lyniar blindsides people out of nowhere with PERSONAL FACTS ABOUT THIER LIVES. It's not that hard not to. Just talk about what the ACTUAL thread is about. I don't see people posting about her and simon, or her and you.
Just because people USED to do the lyniar crusades MAKES NO DIFFERENCE. They didn't now. She needs to learn some TACT, and not do that shit. it's low, it's mean, and it's amazingly rude.
Yeah, it's not like Lyinar makes personal attacks... nope...
Nope, not at all. Bringing up what Rosa said about envy to flame her in regards to a sigpic was DEFINITELY not a personal attack.
I'm not going to lock this thread as has been requested of me because, quite frankly, the entire point of the thread was to drag up feelings about Lyinar and lay them in the open, at her very own request. But it's started down on that slippery slope. You kids play nice and keep it relatively civil like it has been.
[ 04-05-2003: Message edited by: Gikkwiny ]
Second, this is a Lyinar thread. Not a Deth or Lashanna thread. It's for reasoned and calm banter about Lyinar. Any flaming, especially off-topic flaming will be dealt with.
Lash, if you want to respond to what Deth said in his PM here (I don't know what he said. I do know from your comment what one point was, however) feel free, but please keep it civil.
Lyinar Ka`Bael, Piney Fresh Druidess - Luclin
My ego was never a factor in my being disturbed my Malbi.
He lives very close to me.
He asked me regularly (every day) how my day had been at classes.
I often told him I didn't want to talk.
He at one point made a comment about coming to my house with condoms.
He approached me about 'cyber'.
I was not the only one who had been approached in this way.
I did tell him to knock it off.
My ego was never a factor in it. I wasn't a 'coward'. What I did WAS based on Reasoning. And sorry to Malbi, but it's not my fault he was too dense to take a hint.
Just because mopes around #Talera now at your drawstrings doesn't change the fact that he WAS a rather creepy and disturbing fellow for the duration of his... 'phase' or whatever
You and Lyinar hate me because I 'wounded Malbi'? I find that hard to believe, and I think it's just an excuse.... [ 04-05-2003: Message edited by: Lashanna ]
There is some speculation that the God of Fortune, Ganesh, is modeled after her.
"Don't want to sound like a fanboy, but I am with you. I'll buy it for sure, it's just a matter of for how long I will be playing it..."
- Silvast, Battle.net forums
disclaimer: This is a poor attempt at a joke. I know I'm generalizing, and that a lot of people haven't gotten mad, irked, or frustrated at all in this thread.
"How can you ever hope to know the Beloved
Without becoming in every cell the Lover?
And when you are the Lover at last, you don't care.
Whatever you know or don't - only Love is real."
Evil will always triumph over good because good is dumb. - Dark Helmet
quote:
vertue's fortune cookie read:
One thing that I've noticed about this thread that I find peculiar, is that although a lot of people are saying that Lyinar flames a lot of people, she is the only one in this thread who hasn't come close to breathing fire yet.
disclaimer: This is a poor attempt at a joke. I know I'm generalizing, and that a lot of people haven't gotten mad, irked, or frustrated at all in this thread.
That's because this thread is for her to get victimized
"Don't want to sound like a fanboy, but I am with you. I'll buy it for sure, it's just a matter of for how long I will be playing it..."
- Silvast, Battle.net forums
quote:
Fazum'Zen Fastfist had this to say about Jimmy Carter:
That's because this thread is for her to get victimized
I forsee another victim in this thread.
quote:
vertue had this to say about Punky Brewster:
One thing that I've noticed about this thread that I find peculiar, is that although a lot of people are saying that Lyinar flames a lot of people, she is the only one in this thread who hasn't come close to breathing fire yet.
disclaimer: This is a poor attempt at a joke. I know I'm generalizing, and that a lot of people haven't gotten mad, irked, or frustrated at all in this thread.
...That's because she's not supposed to flame anything in this thread, it's so that we can all discuss her, without her interference.
Why don't you stay out of this till you've been around longer?
quote:
How.... Lashanna.... uughhhhhh:
...That's because she's not supposed to flame anything in this thread, it's so that we can all discuss her, without her interference.Why don't you stay out of this till you've been around longer?
I know. Relax, it was a joke, and besides, I'm to tired to make any really good Jokes right now.
Perchance, do you actually know how long I've been here?
"How can you ever hope to know the Beloved
Without becoming in every cell the Lover?
And when you are the Lover at last, you don't care.
Whatever you know or don't - only Love is real."
Evil will always triumph over good because good is dumb. - Dark Helmet
quote:
vertue had this to say about (_|_):
I know. Relax, it was a joke, and besides, I'm to tired to make any really good Jokes right now.
Perchance, do you actually know how long I've been here?
09-18-2002?
quote:
vertue had this to say about Duck Tales:
Perchance, do you actually know how long I've been here?
About six months.
It's not something people hear about.
quote:
vertue was listening to Cher while typing:
I know. Relax, it was a joke, and besides, I'm to tired to make any really good Jokes right now.
Sorry, I'm gonna have to agree with popular consensus. You're not terribly funny. It'd be better if you could come back when you've worked on your routine a bit.
quote:
vertue had this to say about Jimmy Carter:
I know. Relax, it was a joke, and besides, I'm to tired to make any really good Jokes right now.
Perchance, do you actually know how long I've been here?
Assumed you hadn't been here very long, because, well, you don't act like you understand what's going on, but...
I digress.
