*shakes her head*

I asked you to stand up for someone if you saw something being done wrong. I didn't say me. I didn't say anyone's name at all. I said that standing up for someone, anyone, would mean more than me than anything you could ever give me.

Please don't put words in my mouth, Brendan.

quote:

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Everyone wondered WTF when Lyinar Ka`Bael wrote:
So are you one of the 17 who voted ban? Hell, even the 5 who voted voice of reason make me curious. All I've seen is middle of the road. Give me some extremes. I've always been honest with you all, be honest with me now.

And I ask that Drysart not throw a shitfit toward anyone that does. I'm not going to turn anything into a flamewar, because I'm not going to respond in any way to what's said.

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I HATE YOU SO MUCH.

See tag

You have an extreme tendancy to be underhanded, snide, and veil your insults, quips and attacks behind a cause. As in the war thread with bringing up a person's personal life, which was hersay and rumor and completely baseless and untrue, and slide into an argument underhandedly to justify a point to which it was completely irrelevant anyway. You do it, you know you do it, it's intentional and we've had that conversation before. You have a tendancy to grandstand on too many occasions, and are unending in your pursuits of more often than not, non-existant causes. You have a tendancy to not know when to keep your mouth shut and walk away. Yes, blunt is good, honest is good, standing up for a belief is good, but so is knowing when to back out and just shut up. It would save you and everyone a lot of grief. Youre style, and execution has to be the worst out of anyone here in presentation. I don't generally get along with Bloodsage although I don't dislike, and I greatly respect him, I have a lot of beefs with Parcelan that I've delt with him on, but I can handle them a lot better over all because your worst trait, around here, and most obvious is your tendancy to be redundantly hypocritical. You are hypocritical in what you say, and often in what you do. You contradict your own stances often times within the same argument you started on a different point. Rarely, and usually not without some serious time out, do you ever admit wrong doing on your part, at all. Because although you may admit to it openly, each adnmittal is ihnerantly filled with those vieled quips, insults, and accusations. You are never free and clear. To me, at least, not as a friend, but as a poster here. You are the most offensive of the lot to how I feel and view things from my perspective. You've also gotten conciderably worse, mean, and irritating lately. Whether it's because of what you have going on, or the viewing at work which seems to be a place that irritates the living hell out of you because you are always mad about something there, I don't know. Most of it is a personal afford to how I think people should act and be treated, and I do think you need a break.

This wasn't meant to be mean, cruel, or anything like that, and I do respect you in my own way. But this is honest, blunt, forward expression of my view on the situation.

quote:

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Kekvit Irae had this to say about the Spice Girls:
An eye for an eye leaves the whole world blind' (quoted by Ghandi)?

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Whenever I say that I just get strange looks and no one knows what I mean

quote:

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Nwist, Baby had this to say about John Romero:
Whenever I say that I just get strange looks and no one knows what I mean

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Hey, an eye for an eye, and you wouldn't get strange looks.

quote:

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Nwist, Baby had this to say about (_|_):
Whenever I say that I just get strange looks and no one knows what I mean

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Same here

BUT LOOK WHERE THAT GOT GANDHI!!

I just couldn't put it in such a way to make it sound decent.

Some times you get me so mad, Lyinar, with the things you do. Especialy when you drag out people's personal lives. You *need* to learn when to back off, and leave people's personal lives out of your arguments. That doesn't help your cause, it makes you look worse.

In other words, how personal is your personal life if you drag all the elements of it across the public message board? If I don't want people knowing the inner workings of my relationship with Lyinar (which 90% of the time I don't), then I know to not bring it up on the boards. When something happens in the EQ Evercrest chat that I don't like, I know not to take veiled shots at people on the public board.

If you don't want people to disagree with how you live, then don't expose yourself to the risk. You want to rape monkeys in the basement with a broomstick, that's your business, but don't bring it up on the boards and expect people to be sympathetic.

It's VERY easy to wave your finger at someone and say "oooo you mean thing, you shouldn't bring up personal business" but nothing, and I mean nothing that I, for instance, know about the people on this board comes from me hiring private investigators, doing credit checks into their backgrounds, or following them around in my car. Any and all information I have on anyone here, and any and all information Lyinar has on anyone, comes from what they say here. From what they themselves expose themselves to.

If someone comes on the boards and says "Hey I'm a drug-snorting, warez-downloading, polygamist, bestiality-loving sex fiend from Iraq with issues because the White Man is oppressing me" how long would they last? Exposing your unusual lifestyle and being vehement about it is a good way to get a swift kick in the pants, no matter how well-loved you are in the community.

[ 03-31-2003: Message edited by: Ja'Deth Issar Ka'bael ]

quote:

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Ja'Deth Issar Ka'bael spewed forth this undeniable truth:
SNIP.

---

Which is mostly true, but taking my example of what I used to point it out. It was a veiled statement against a point to which it was irrelevant and consisted mostly or personal injecture, hearsay, rumor, and what was at the time an RP Inclusive environment. The statement was untrue, and was an 'assumed' fact on the part of the poster.

There is a difference between someone coming out and saying, in all honesty who and what they are, and being called on it later and taking hersay, rumor, and personal opinion to instigate a fact about something. Knowing, and assuming/thinking you know, are two entirely different things.

Calling foul on something to which you do not know the facts which makes it a questionable approach is callaus, unfair, and cruel. Especially when used in the manner it was.

I've heard some say the boards use to be so much more personal and more like a community etc etc... But, if someone wants a more personal community close knit board, the posters of the board, need to have some security that they can post personal things and not have them used against them at a later time.

This is why I voted 5.

Listening to someone I care about torn apart by what she had said was the last straw.

Her pulling out things that she has heard from onee source, but involves two people on this board is WRONG.

Her pulling out shit that wasn't public knowlege, but she knows is WRONG.

her airing shit about Drys and piper is wrong, because the shit she is pulling out WASN'T publicly posted. It wasn't a fucking threesome, It wasn't Lyniar-Drys-and-Piper. It was -Drys- and -Piper- she IS NOT PART OF THE RELATIONSHIP. She shoudl not post in any way about it on the boards, unless whatever fact she knows is ALREADY MADE COMMON KNOWLEDGE BY THE PARTIES INVOLVED.

her use of people's first name to lord over them when she is pissed off pisses me off.

I have tlaked to her for some length. We reached an agreement on something - and not twenty minutes later, she snapped the tentative agreement like a twig.

.... So I vote a 5.

quote:

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Gikkwiny's fortune cookie read:
I agree with Faelynn.

This is why I voted 5.

Listening to someone I care about torn apart by what she had said was the last straw.

Her pulling out things that she has heard from onee source, but involves two people on this board is WRONG.

Her pulling out shit that wasn't public knowlege, but she knows is WRONG.

her airing shit about Drys and piper is wrong, because the shit she is pulling out WASN'T publicly posted. It wasn't a fucking threesome, It wasn't Lyniar-Drys-and-Piper. It was -Drys- and -Piper- she IS NOT PART OF THE RELATIONSHIP. She shoudl not post in any way about it on the boards, unless whatever fact she knows is ALREADY MADE COMMON KNOWLEDGE BY THE PARTIES INVOLVED.

her use of people's first name to lord over them when she is pissed off pisses me off.

I have tlaked to her for some length. We reached an agreement on something - and not twenty minutes later, she snapped the tentative agreement like a twig.

.... So I vote a 5.

---

EXACTLY!

I will happily answer any posts involving me on a flaming spit, or whatever tommororw - in about 12 hours. I have just been on a 7 hour plane trip, and I ened to go collapse.

... but I will be back in the morning/afternoon. Promise. ^^

First names...hmm. In some cases I don't think it matters much. Lyinar calling Kekvit by his given name, for instance. In the vast majority of cases I haven't seen someone lording someone else's name over someone else's head. Lyinar doesn't call Kloie or Synjari "Monica" and she doesn't go around calling the two or three Brians she knows about by that name on the boards. In fact, about the only time she does use a person's given name, assuming she knows it, is when she's being very very serious about things. And even then she doesn't always use first names. So the "first name" argument seems more like a collective pet peeve some people have than a dire problem.

As for the statement regarding underhanded, snide quips behind a cause...let's assume that's true for a moment. As I said earlier, if I post a long-winded spiel explaining things, how often do people respond intelligently? How often do they post one liners about not wanting to bother reading it? Conversely, how often after Lyinar posts a fiery flame with a cause do things change? People tend to knock off certain behavior, if only for a while. It's not a pretty victory, but it does get the result, yes?

As further proof of the fact that people don't respond to polite arguments...I've gotten nasty towards Parcelan several times in the last couple of months. USUALLY I post a long-winded paragraph or ten and we go from there. This last time in the thread that was locked when he jumped on Beaukat and Azizza, I got like half a dozen people sending me PM's saying things to the effect of "right on" and "man I'm glad someone said something". Whether I was in the right place at the right time, or whether snappy nasty clever, cutting comments get results over logical, well-thought out arguments is for you to decide in this case.

And now the pissy side of me wants to point out that SOME people around here who shall remain nameless seem to get off on the idea of winding Lyinar up. They make "Lyinar Crusade" comments, and they make snide little "Lyinar's Cause" comments and rather than discussing the point at hand they set out to set her off...to the point that Drysart added to the rules of the board the clause about ad hominem attacks on people. To the point where he specifically said no more photoshopping pics to attack people. Right? So don't act as if Lyinar taking shots at individuals she doesn't like is something she did first, did best, or did it most often.

In addendum to THAT point, it's also all fine, well, and good to wave your fingers at someone and say "You need to know when to back off", but why bother if no one else will? I've been here for quite some time, and about the only two people I know who stayed backed off after they crossed a line are Arttemis and Mortious, as I am very fond of saying. Everyone else, eventually, will decide that it's funny to cross the line again and start taking shots at people again. Or they'll think they're so...bloody...clever to bring old matters up and it'll all start over again.

And if someone's personal life isn't a valid point to bring up in an argument, then it can't be a valid point to bring up in any side of the argument, by either of the people involved, or by outsiders. You can't bring up something, use it to defend an action or as an argument supporting something, then later on say "Off limits."

And again the pissy side of me says that the only reason people don't like it when Lyinar does it is because of her policy of not holding back. People have for some time now liked to say that I'm whipped. They like to say that I'm just Lyinar's mouthpiece. They like to call me things like Lyinar's terrier and the like (which I rather take as a compliment due to the fact that one of my literary heroes gets called "Vetinari's Terrier" fairly often). Does anyone stand up for me? Negative. Never have. I have to get nasty myself without support by myself to keep that from happening. I was very clear for a very long time that I didn't want a title because I was mortified that it'd be "Lyinar's Pet" or something like that. Not that I don't want to be associated, but because that was an element of my personal life that I didn't want to be defined by. People make allusions to Lyinar and my relationship, crack jokes at our expense. Defense? Anyone? Negative. It's easy to say there's no situation where comments about someone's personal or romantic life are appropriate. And maybe there aren't. But if there aren't then there aren't on either side. You can't have a rule for one group of people and a rule for another group. Or exceptions to the rule if it's funny.

As for the boards being more friendly and personal, yeah they were. Then it became popular to attack people over every little thing. It became popular to trade easygoing humor for out of control sexual innuendo. These days it's a joke that the boards are PG-13 rated, or that they ever were, and they WERE once PG-13. These days they're R Rated. And there's a lot more people here. See...even back in the old days couples broke up and people got in other peoples' business. That hasn't changed. A lot of things have. Pointing towards Lyinar and saying "Oh she's why we can't all be friends anymore" is just plain stupid.

I haven't read the war forums thread. Don't know what she said there. I'm focusing on the arguments people make here. If you'd like to elaborate on what she said there, go ahead.

But, Gikkwiny, if any of your comments on Lyinar have anything to do with the bit of nastiness between her, RIG, you, and myself recently, I would very much like you to explain your point a bit better.

Aside from that I think I covered the points of the last few complaints.

quote:

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Falaanla Marr had this to say about Punky Brewster:
I want the old days of the boards back. *sniff*

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You mean the days where once a week a new person would discover you were a guy?

quote:

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Frog spewed forth this undeniable truth:
You mean the days where once a week a new person would discover you were a guy?

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Holy shit! Fal is a guy?

[ 03-31-2003: Message edited by: Led ]

quote:

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So quoth Frog:
You mean the days where once a week a new person would discover you were a guy?

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Wow, I miss those days.

quote:

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Led stopped beating up furries long enough to write:
Holy shit! Fal is a guy?

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Your post was funnier when it just said, 'Holy shit!'

That is all.

quote:

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Frog had this to say about Duck Tales:
Your post was funnier when it just said, 'Holy shit!'

That is all.

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But im not a guy. Im a sexy chix0r

As for this matter... indifference. I don't know Lyinar well enough and try to stay the hell out of flame threads, sooo... plus, I don't think it's fair to judge someone based solely on their bad sides, in this case argumenty stuff. Plus I'm too tired to think on it. Anyway. Indifference.

You all certainly got on me (rightly) when I was a moderator holding people to the rules, but you don't go after Lyinar. I wonder why.

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From the book of Frog, chapter 3, verse 16:
If Lyinar doesn't wish this to turn into some big argument, as stated by her saying she won't answer anything being said about her, why do you keep responding obviously against her wishes?

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If Lyinar wants to kick my ass over this then she's more than welcome to. I'm arguing against some rather hypocritical trends I'm seeing.

Bzzzt.. click.

I am RoboDeth.

Bzzzwhiiiiir.

My duty is to serve and protect Lyinar.

Bzzzzt-click!

A plate moves from his leg and he does that twirly thing with the ban stick before holstering it, the plate moving back into place.

Have a nice day.

omfg I'm kidding! don't hurt me plz

Protect The Innocent.

Uphold the Law.

Anyhow, more on point to the subject, we middle-of-the-roaders are going to stay on the middle of the road, thanks very much. Its a nice place to be, and the reason we can continue to have a good time. There aren't any causes or insults, just some social interaction.

The reason I didn't give a useful vote on this thread which is really about flame wars is that I don't participate in flame wars. Which of course is the irony - those who avoid them won't vote on them, and those who get involved with them are all prejudiced.

Meh.

quote:

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Frog got all f'ed up on Angel Dust and wrote:
If Lyinar doesn't wish this to turn into some big argument, as stated by her saying she won't answer anything being said about her, why do you keep responding obviously against her wishes?

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I said I wouldn't start a flamewar. But I would never tell people to keep opinions to themselves if they wanted to defend me, just the same as I'm encouraging free rein of negative ones, and asking Drysart not to take action against any. Hopefully this can stay a semi-civil conversation. There is some harshness present, but overall I think it's staying nicely out of flame territory

[ 03-31-2003: Message edited by: Lyinar Ka`Bael ]

I've seen a lot of this from first or second hand experience, as Lyinar has attacked me and friends, both openly and underhanded, and generally made an ass out of herself innumerable times because of a seeming absolute lack of any kind of humility and a conviction that if she was wrong on a point even as insignificant as which color of paper is the best, the world would be torn asunder and reality itself would crumble.

Would hate to see someone banned and as a result the boards became boring or something

Then I would have NOTHING to do during class

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Ja'Deth Issar Ka'bael had this to say about Tron:
SNIP

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Typically, and in practice on these boards, with the exception of a small minority, people only stop responding, and or being inttligent once an attack has been made. I'm one of them. So that doesn't really apply. And, at least in my case, Im going to tear into friend as harshly as I would an enemy, sometimes even more so. I tend to pride myself one being perfectly nuetral. Like in the case of you pointing Arttemis and Mortious out as people who back off, they are friends and I like em, Arttemis is fact is probably one of my closest male friends here. Period. But even I have to get on him sometimes cause he starts to take things a bit to far. And he knows it. He has also had to do the same to me. So no, not even they stay backed off for good, or handle things the best. No one really can. However, there is no one hear, that I think, needs to back off more than Lyinar. And as you can see most of the board agrees. There is a reason for it. As one case in point, if I have to deal with Arttemis personally, or he has to deal with me personally. It's not made into a public debaucle, which most of her arguments are. No she was not the first to cross the line, no she was not the one who started a lot of the bad blood, but she is the worst about handling it. Most of the grief she recieves, and most of those crusade attacks that keep being brought up, she brought apon herself out of the sheer fact she doesn't know when to quit, and gets involved too many times when she really just shouldn't.

Does this mean she is never right, no. Does it mean she shouldnt be able to have an opinion, no. However, Lyinar and opinions, dont really work very well for the way she handles things, and she just wont lay off. She's not the only one like that, not by a long shot, but in my personal oppinion she stirs up the most trouble and is the worse of the lot.

As far as the personal life again. It's more her pulling things up that are very innapropriate for the time. I wont get into the crap in the war forum for the sheer fact, I was against it being done in the first place, and Im not going to bring it back up. But she has a tendancy to bring something personal up when it has no bearing on anything other than to make some point, imaginary or not, and shove it home with a bite. Unjustified, and uncalled for, especially when it is not the facts, and is mostly an opinion on what is BELIEVED to be true, not what IS actually true. She also has a tendancy to bring up stuff publically that she knows in a closed way. Things that people DIDN'T want to make public or made public at all, but something they told her, or that she's 'heard' about. In order to cut someone down, or send a point home. I TOTALY disagree with that sort of behaviour at all. It goes against everything I am. I have been EC's ear for years. It is my job, something I pride myself for, if I even took half of what people have used to confide in me with, or even a drop of what I know. I could quite easily destroy many people. So it is a major affront to see it happen for me.

As far as you're responce to Parcelan getting kudo statements. Who likes, and approves of what will always differ. But then are far less people who would send Lyinar kudos for what she does, that what you got for tearing down Parcelan, even though I agree with your stance on what you said in that thread, it is irrelivant. Because I've always confronted Parcelan and talked to him about laying off, or made it known I thought he was a bit to mean in the past. But it has nothing to do with people responding better to cruel, snide posts than nice intelligent ones. It was just a matter of the situation.

There are really just too many issues to adddress as far as this is concerned, I can't really get all of the ones I want taken care of, and some I can't bring to mind all at once. And I do happen to like her, just not as a poster anymore, and not for a long time. As harsh as it may sound, and like it or not, public opinion, from quite the majority is people just want her to just go away and leave things alone, or be banned all together. Either that or just downright dont care one way or another.

Out all the threads like this that have been, or may be in the future, this is probably the one a lot of people wanted privately to get things out in the open and practically burn her at the stake, yet even with the harsh words, it has remained mostly civil. People don't hate her, they hate what she does and how she does it.

[ 03-31-2003: Message edited by: Faelynn LeAndris ]

-Tok

[ 03-31-2003: Message edited by: Toktuk ]

I think that if you find yourself having so many differences with a community that you spend a lot of time arguing with others in it, you need to pack up and leave, for the benefit of all parties involved. S'why I don't spend as much time here as I used to, I just disagree with the viewpoints of too many people around here. If that person can't be persuaded to leave for the good of everyone, they need to be forced out.

I'd elaborate more, but Fae has pretty much hit the nail on the head. I agree with him 100%, as I usually do.

-Tok

It's a giant potato with big teeth and man breasts! Run for your...

Oh, wait, It's just Toktuk.

[Edit: You sonofabitch! Change your sigpic back right now so my post makes sense!]

[ 03-31-2003: Message edited by: JooJooFlop ]

The issue with Lyinar had nothing whatsoever to do with RIG. I talked to her, at length, about Parcelan, and RPCrest. She agreed to lay off, if they did - and then BOOM - it's like I had never talked to her for three hours.

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And if someone's personal life isn't a valid point to bring up in an argument, then it can't be a valid point to bring up in any side of the argument, by either of the people involved, or by outsiders. You can't bring up something, use it to defend an action or as an argument supporting something, then later on say "Off limits."

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And this... Well... What happens is that she blindsides people out of nowhere. They make a comment she disagrees with, and even though the board does not know whatever little treasure she does, she sees herself as the person who gets to tell it.
THIS IS NOT RIGHT. She is not one of the poeple in the relationship, weather is is Nae/Kanid/UBT (which.. I'm not even getting into that. DO NOT BRING UP THAT RELATIONSHIP.) Or Drys/Piper/Whomever. Seeing how Lyniar is Notthat whomever there, the RELATIONSHIP IS NONE OF HER FUCKING BUSINESS.

Pulling out how soandso did suchandsuch when it's not common board knowlege is NOT HER RIGHT. Period.

And yes, the using personal names is a pet peeve - but some poeple get freaked out by being called by thier real name online. I know I would, unless it was by an EXTREMLY close friend - and a lot of people have issues- the board is ananymous. Pulling out names and waving them around is just rude.

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We were all impressed when JooJooFlop wrote:
[Edit: You sonofabitch! Change your sigpic back right now so my post makes sense!]

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Charr Ogre > Shadowbane Ogre

-Tok