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Kegwen had this to say about (_|_):
See Khyron's post.

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You're not implying all these people preordered it just to get the bonus disc, are you? Knowing they were also paying for a game with graphics they would "laugh at"?

I don't think so. I have to believe that some of those people preordered it because they mainly wanted to get Wind Waker.

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Mightion Defensor painfully thought these words up:
You're not implying all these people preordered it just to get the bonus disc, are you? Knowing they were also paying for a game with graphics they would "laugh at"?

I don't think so. I have to believe that some of those people preordered it because they mainly wanted to get Wind Waker.

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Ahh, those with faith in Nintendo. I wish they hadn't caused me to not trust them anymore sooo many years ago...

Graphics don't need to always be pretty, they need to be appropriate to the game.

Some games like tetris, solitaire, etc, live only from their gameplay. They don't really need graphics to convene it. Others (mostly strategy games) don't really need graphics to be mind-blowingly great, but they still need to be enough to provide a functional interface, and convene the atmosphere of the game.

Generally the more story-driven a game becomes the more graphics become important to convey the story, characters, locations and so on (well except if we're talking text adventures) and make them appear believable. For games that heavily build on atmosphere good and game-appropriate graphics are essential, imagine MGS or Thief in candy colors with Mario as the main character.

A single character RPG (what zelda is from my understanding) would do good to display the character as something the player can identify with.

[ 03-20-2003: Message edited by: Shazorx / Modrakien ]

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Shazorx / Modrakien wrote, obviously thinking too hard:
--stuff--

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I like how this man thinks.

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Check out the big brain on Shazorx / Modrakien!
Not gonna comment on Zelda because I never played one, but concerning game graphics in general:

Grapics don't need to always be pretty, they need to be appropriate to the game.

Some games like tetris, solitaire, etc, live only from their gameplay. They don't really need graphics to convene it. Others (mostly strategy games) don't really need graphics to be mind-blowingly great, but they still need to be enough to provide a functional interface, and convene the atmosphere of the game.

Generally the more story-driven a game becomes the more graphics become important to convey the story, characters, locations and so on (well except if we're talking text adventures) and make them appear believable. For games that heavily build on atmosphere good and game-appropriate graphics are essential, imagine MGS or Thief in candy colors with Mario as the main character.

A single character RPG (what zelda is from my understanding) would do good to display the character as something the player can identify with.

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Very nice post

And...the graphics ARE appropriate to the world in this game. Read the vision Miyamoto had behind the game. Look at the game. A realistic link in this world would NOT work

And Kegwen, just because Nintendo CAN make a short video of link and ganondorf that looks realistic to demonstrate the gamecube hardware doesn't mean they can make a game with NEARLY that quality of graphics throughout.

And just because its cel-shaded does not meal the system's full power isnt in use, it is just being used in a way people didnt expect, so it's bad.

I still stand by my theory that them using that Link vs Ganondorf video to show off the Cube at Spaceworld 2000 was a bad thing if they planned to do what they are doing with Wind Waker. They showed what the system can do though, and what some people dont understand, is that they cant really do that with such a large game as Wind Waker.

Ah well, I know that I'll be enjoying Wind Waker.

Graphics have to fit a game.

Played the demo? Great. What was the demo for? To show you the engine, a few items, how stealth is used, and how one of the boss fights plays out.
That's it.

It wasn't to engross you in the story.
It wasn't to show you why they chose that graphical style.
It wasn't to make you cry at the fact they aren't using a 10 billion poly model of link.

You wanna bitch about the game to me? Fine. Do it after you've played the game. Do it after you realize why they chose that graphical style.

Otherwise, your point at the "gag factor" of the graphics is entirely moot.

I really hope that this game gives me a reason to buy a Gamecube, but as of yet I don't see it.

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A sleep deprived Falaanla Marr stammered:
What, RIG...is anyone that actually thinks this game will be good a fanboy, or am I misunderstanding you?

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Are you a drooling at the mouth zelot like Delf (Yes, I am too damn lazy to spell it right. Deal with it.) is trying to be? You said you wanna play the game. Ok, fine. Have you basically insulted everyone that doesn't want to play the game based on the fact that they think the "artwork" (and I don't think it can be called that) in the game just don't appeal to them? Not that I've seen...

That's the difference.

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Delphi Aegis stumbled drunkenly to the keyboard and typed:
What RIG and Khyron don't get (For either rabid ANTI fanboiness, or other stupid reasons) is exactly what Fal and Modraiken are getting at.

Graphics have to fit a game.

Played the demo? Great. What was the demo for? To show you the engine, a few items, how stealth is used, and how one of the boss fights plays out.
That's it.

It wasn't to engross you in the story.
It wasn't to show you why they chose that graphical style.
It wasn't to make you cry at the fact they aren't using a 10 billion poly model of link.

You wanna bitch about the game to me? Fine. Do it after you've played the game. Do it after you realize why they chose that graphical style.

Otherwise, your point at the "gag factor" of the graphics is entirely moot.

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They Don't Fit The Game, tardo.

The graphics in Zelda 2 didn't fit the fucking game. They looked good at the time and the game was nice overall, but they did not fit. Notice that the SNES Zelda game went back to the original format as did the GameBoy games?

I don't think the 3d shit they're trying fits as well as you seem to. Part of it is the "Look at me I'm a 4 year old girl" aspect they applied to Link and part of it is the fact that they went overboard in the cartoon feel of it. I would prefer something that at least made an attempt at being a serious game. If this is now going to be a kiddie RPG then I'll strike it from my list and never look back. I was hoping for someting a bit more adult than Nintendo is willing to put out.

Also, after watching the movie that came with Ocarina of Time for it, I can say that it plays well, and actually looks better in action than it does in screen shots.

It will rock

I am looking foward to picking up my copy and playing for hours on end.

The graphics fit well. Now that I think about it, Zelda was never really MEANT to go in the direction of 3d gaming, only that it had to because the N64 couldn't handle a cel-shaded game. Since the N64 used cartridges instead of CDs, the cartoony cel-shaded look was impossible, if they did try it, the game wouldn't have moved as smooth as Nintendo would have wanted. And that's one of the nice things about Wind Waker. It's smooth, no noticeable lag.

I look at Wind Waker, then I look at the N64's Zeldas and then I look at the Zelda games of older systems. The series NEVER looked a bit realistic until the N64, and now that they're going back to the cartoony look (which I think the series should have kept) people hate it. 3D is great and all, but so many games are realistic looking now, that I think I prefer the new cartoony graphics simply because it's DIFFERENT. And about Link looking like a 4 year old girl... Eh, he did in that first bit of footage that Nintendo released, but I think they've fixed that now.

The Wind Waker affects me the same way that Mario 64 did the first time I played it. When you get into the game for the very first time, NEVER seeing a 3d game before it, your jaw drops, and all you can say is "Whoa...". I already have just looking at footage of the game over the internet, and I KNOW that looking at the game on a .mov over the internet won't look as good as it will on the 31 inch TV in my bedroom.

I think Wind Waker looks good in the graphical style that they made the game in, now I just have to wait 6 days for me to get my hands on it.

I can see the justification in the cel-shading of Wind Waker, but what *I* was really looking forward to was Nintendo taking the next step up with Link, appearance wise. Instead of taking a step up, they... took a side door along the stairwell, into a different room. I was really disappointed to learn that I wasn't going to get to see an excellently rendered and cool Link.

I'm not all about the graphics. In fact, I play a lot of text-based games still. So it is sort of bothersome when people say that I "only don't like Wind Waker because of the graphics" and that I'm a "shallow gamer".

The problem I had, is that, basicly, Nintendo took Link in a direction I really disliked.
It seems like two extremes of the spectrum were gritty Helm's Deep in The Two Towers movie spliced with D-Day in Saving Private Ryan and... this.

All in all, Cel Shading has it's place, but I don't think this it... The wholely 3-dimensional world cel-shaded, sorry to say, ends up looking to me, like 2-dimensional characters.

Then there's also the plot... The plot like Link's Awakening, with the typical Zelda rescue as well, except this time, the person is his sister (or whatever).
I dunno, the plot worked on Link's Awakening... Link is sort of "out" and on this island, sort of like the game itself is "out" and on the gameboy. You can go other places besides your home, and play Link who is in a place besides his home.

It was a great game, but it doesn't feel like part of the main plot, and isn't presented as such (thus is not on a main system).

Look at Mask of Majora, or Majora's Mask, or whatever. Nobody's really said much about it. It was a largely underwhelming sequel. It seems like presenting the major Zelda game of the time (each Zelda is released in a different time period, and defines the series for that time) outside of the real plot can be a folly.

The absence of the seemingly eternal struggle between Link and Gannondorf over the Princess Zelda and the Triforce, on the battleground of Hyrule, has led to a certain feeling for the series. It seems like that the Defining Zelda of the Time should have these elements. Legend of Zelda did. Link to the Past did. Ocarina of Time did. Virtually without question, these are the key games to the series.

Wind Waker has none of these elements, and hasn't really demonstrated to me any exceedingly new advances in gameplay (sure it's a different interface, but for the most part, the gameplay didn't feel new, or present anything astonishing, like Ocarina of Time did). In addition, I dislike the cel-shading direction that games in general are taking, and Wind Waker carries cel-shading to it's extreme.

Cel-Shading was fine for Jet Set Radio, and it was a nice, new, different, novelty. But it's certainly not the next step in video game design.

I'm not sure if any of this made sense.
I am sure that this is all my opinion.

For the people saying that Zelda was never realistic... We're not asking for more "realistic". Zelda 64 was moving more along the lines of well done and displayed. It wasn't realistic, a lot of the people and creatures moved a bit cartoony. But still, there were moments that had that serious feel to it, with forboding atmosphere, graphics and music to match.

Yet then you could also wake up some old cow farmer with a chicken you kept in your inventory.

It just seems like the dark or serious moments of the game will be completely lost in Wind Waker.

[ 03-20-2003: Message edited by: Sinice Aralund ]

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There was much rejoicing when Random Insanity Generator said this:
They Don't Fit The Game, tardo.

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And when did you play a full version of Wind Waker?

Oh, right.

I've said this from the VERY fucking beginning. You don't like it, okay. At least give it a full day of play before you make a full fledged decision on it.

This offers nothing.

All my friends cancelled their pre-orders for one reason or another, so I can't see it in person any time soon.

[ 03-20-2003: Message edited by: Kegwen ]

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Delphi Aegis had this to say about Optimus Prime:
I've said this from the VERY fucking beginning. You don't like it, okay. At least give it a full day of play before you make a full fledged decision on it.

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Why would you spend money and time on something you don't want to?

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OtakuPenguin had this to say about Knight Rider:
I just don't like how Link looks.

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There's a thought... question; what if it wasn't Link in the game? What if is wasn't a Zelda game... what would you think of the "art" then?

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Delphi Aegis had this to say about Cuba:
And when did you play a full version of Wind Waker?

Oh, right.

I've said this from the VERY fucking beginning. You don't like it, okay. At least give it a full day of play before you make a full fledged decision on it.

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Wait, so after 20 hours of play Link suddenly looks good? Well hot diggity damn

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Mightion Defensor thought about the meaning of life:
There's a thought... question; what if it wasn't Link in the game? What if is wasn't a Zelda game... what would you think of the "art" then?

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That it is a 4 year old girl I DON'T know

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Mightion Defensor had this to say about Robocop:
There's a thought... question; what if it wasn't Link in the game? What if is wasn't a Zelda game... what would you think of the "art" then?

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As a completely un-related game to the Zelda line? I might actually play it. At that point I'm not holding any pre-conceptions of any characters, I'm not holding on to a game that has a legacy going back to 8bit days, I've got nothing so the game has to stand on it's own.

I *might* play it, assuming what I read on the box looked like it might be a good story in spite of the kiddy-art appearance of the characters.

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Mightion Defensor got all f'ed up on Angel Dust and wrote:
There's a thought... question; what if it wasn't Link in the game? What if is wasn't a Zelda game... what would you think of the "art" then?

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Actually, seeing the game in action makes me feel kinda motion sick (mind you, I haven't seen that much of it in motion yet). The cell shaded images look 2 dimensional, but that doesn't mesh with the 3 dimensional environment. I think my brain trying to work the two together is what causes the problem.

Maybe it's something I can get used to. Dunno... But, my first impression is bad, Zelda or not.

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Vorago got all f'ed up on Angel Dust and wrote:
Wait, so after 20 hours of play Link suddenly looks good? Well hot diggity damn

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It's Nintendo's ways of rewarding true fans.

and Mightion, I should hope any other decent video game company would put their effort into CHARACTER DESIGN. If Wind Waker had used a better character model for Link and kept everything else I would've been fine with it.

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Check out the big brain on Kegwen!
It's Nintendo's ways of rewarding true fans.

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NO he was saying that after playing it all the way through, you'd either be sadistic and want to die, or you'll have adjusted to it. There's no "reward" involved.

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Sinice Aralund had this to say about dark elf butts:

The problem I had, is that, basicly, Nintendo took Link in a direction I really disliked.

All in all, Cel Shading has it's place, but I don't think this it... The wholely 3-dimensional world cel-shaded, sorry to say, ends up looking to me, like 2-dimensional characters.

Look at Mask of Majora, or Majora's Mask, or whatever. Nobody's really said much about it. It was a largely underwhelming sequel. It seems like presenting the major Zelda game of the time (each Zelda is released in a different time period, and defines the series for that time) outside of the real plot can be a folly.

Cel-Shading was fine for Jet Set Radio, and it was a nice, new, different, novelty. But it's certainly not the next step in video game design.

I'm not sure if any of this made sense.
I am sure that this is all my opinion.

For the people saying that Zelda was never realistic... We're not asking for more "realistic". Zelda 64 was moving more along the lines of well done and displayed. It wasn't realistic, a lot of the people and creatures moved a bit cartoony. But still, there were moments that had that serious feel to it, with forboding atmosphere, graphics and music to match.

Yet then you could also wake up some old cow farmer with a chicken you kept in your inventory.

It just seems like the dark or serious moments of the game will be completely lost in Wind Waker.

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I agree with most of this...

Cept the Majora's Mask Comment, and the lack of a dark foreboding Atmosphere..

Majora's Mask was a side story, it didn't have anything to do with the main Zelda franchise other than the name. Hence it wasn't mentioned much, I personally didnt like it, and it wasn't really Zelda. But again it was a sidestory and nothing to do with Zelda aside from the characters and the name. It's Japanese release name was even Zelda, A Side Story. It became Mjaora's Mask for the states.

Wind Waker does have it's darker more foreboding moments, they however don't come until later in the game when you actually get down to the dungeon exploration. They are there however, and they work pretty well...

I still don't really care for Link's new look, and the Sister quest seems kinda odd for me. But Then I've only played a couple hours or so of the release game. And the demo of course, so dunno how much of it gets explained or how. The rest of the game looks good to me, and it's fun.

I also agree that Cel-Shading was better left as a novelty. Although I did find Cel-Damage was a fun game and was better for using it. As is Black and Bruised.

All in all, and yeah people may still not have liked how it came out (I STILL wouldn't like how Link looks exactly), but I can almost guarantee if they had not showed the Spaceworld footage, the uproar would NOT be this bad.

And even as bad as it may sound/look the release version is not the devil product people really seem to think it is. Well.. Cept Maradon, because well.. Nintendo IS the devil.

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Mightion Defensor had this to say about Punky Brewster:
There's a thought... question; what if it wasn't Link in the game? What if is wasn't a Zelda game... what would you think of the "art" then?

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I'm not even against the game. Hell, the only time I play a Cube is when Nikki brings hers over or I go to her house, or any of my friends.

I just don't like how they made Link look.

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Kekvit Irae had this to say about Optimus Prime:
I want a gamecube. Not for Zelda, of course, but for Metroid

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If you liked the other Metroids, you HAVE to get Metroid Prime. Or else.

But, I didn't like the other Metroids. And I got Metroid Prime.

Ofcourse, I'll play it and beat it, for the sake of playing it and beating it.

I thought it looked like shit, so I watched the Fileplanet subscriber-only gameplay movie, which is quite long and shows a lot of internal gameplay in motion.

It still looked like shit.

End of personal opinion.

ZeldaZeldaZeldaZeldaZeldaZeldaZeldaZeldaZeldaZeldaZeldaZeldaZeldaZeldaZeldaZeldaZelda

So bored...

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Directly quoted from the front page of Penny Arcade:

A couple days ago I mentioned that I thought kids who did not like the new look of Zelda were just too immature to appreciate it. Then I got this e-mail:

"So we are not dumb enough to appreciate the wonderful queerness that is the new zelda look?"

I rest my case.

But seriously, these guys think that Zelda is a game for kids. Well only KIDS would care that a game looks like it is for kids. It's like when you are 14 and your mom wants to get a picture of you on the merry go round with your little sister but you don't want to get on because it's for kids. Eventually you grow out of that phase and you can appreciate just having fun whether it be on the back of an undulating wooden horse or in front of a cell shaded video game.

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