In response to the announcement on the Sony Gaming Everquest page
see: <<http://everquest.station.sony.com/eq_mac.jsp>>
I am very concerned that Everquest for Mac OS X is going work only on
segregated Mac-only servers, essentially making the Mac a second class
citizen in the Everquest gaming world.
Your stated reason that Mac users would be thrust into an "unfair" player
environment with established PC users is not a justifiable answer. Every
NEW PC user is thrust into very environment that you are calling unfair to
new Mac users. When I started playing I was thrust into this. I could care
less, it makes the game more interesting.
I believe the real answer is that the technical requirements to move, with
respect to the older "legacy" features of the PC version of Everquest, are
presenting challenges to your development team. Quite simply, your not
putting a 110% effort in making Everquest available for Mac.
I have examined the files used to create the worlds in Everquest and
understand the patching process initiated through your servers. With the
exception of the eqgame.exe, there should be no reason why the Mac version
cannot use other support files. There is no reason not to standardize the
system files so that both the PC version and Mac version can use the same
server.
I want to play with established servers with my established friends, not on
a "Mac only" server.
I believe that Everquest for Mac can only succeed if it is in an inclusive
environment NOT segregated away from existing servers. If you cannot make
Everquest work with both Mac and PC's using the same servers, there is no
point developing the software. I'm not going to purchase the Mac version or
recommend it to my friends because it is useless.
If you change your mind and make the Mac version work equally with PC
versions, Ill sign up for three copies right now.
Sincerely,
-----------------------------------------
Below is the text from the Sony Everquest Page at http://everquest.station.sony.com/eq_mac.jsp
On July 17, 2002, Sony Online Entertainment announced that they will be
releasing its flagship game, EverQuest®, on the Mac OSX. The following FAQ
has been provided to answer some questions you may have about this exciting
conversion of EverQuest which is anticipated to ship in Spring of 2003.
Q. What is included in EverQuest for the Mac?
A. EverQuest for the Mac will be a single package that includes the original
EverQuest, and the expansions EverQuest: The Ruins of Kunark, EverQuest:
The Scars of Velious, and EverQuest: The Shadows of Luclin. This means Mac
players with one product will gain access to over 150 zones, many times the
size and scope of original EverQuest. Additionally, from the outset Mac
users will have access to the enhanced and upgraded graphics provided in the
various expansions, including the new character models and terrain provided
by EverQuest: The Shadows of Luclin.
Q. Isn¹t EQ three years old? Why bring it to the Mac now?
A. While the game EverQuest has indeed been running for quite some time, as
mentioned above it has been continually updated over that period, and
Macintosh users will be gaining access to all of those updates with
EverQuest for the Mac, including updated graphics, new zones, new character
races and classes, and refined features like a new User Interface.
Q. How much will EQ/Mac cost?
A. Pricing is undetermined at this time, but as a single package the retail
pricing will reflect typical costs for premium Macintosh games. Subscriber
rates will be equivalent to the PC EverQuest service cost.
Q. When will EQ/Mac be available?
A. We anticipate EQ for the Mac to ship in the Spring of 2003 and we hope to
begin Beta testing at the end of 2002. Further details will be announced on www.everquest.com.
Q. Will PC/Mac users play together on the same server?
A. No, Mac users will play on servers expressly created for the Mac
community. There are several reasons for this, but the most compelling are
game play related. Since most of the Mac users will be first-time customers
of EQ, they will receive the best value and enjoyment out of the game by
starting on an ³even playing field², and not having to compete with PC users
who have a substantial head start in time.
Also, over time we have continually made refinements to the play
characteristics of the game, the rarity or abundance of certain items, etc.
In deference to players who may have legitimately obtained an item before we
considered it fully tuned, we often leave these in play on existing servers,
even if they are slightly unbalanced. A fresh server set with existing rules
provides the most balanced environment we can establish; and we feel the
gains in enjoyment of playability outweigh the potential negatives.
We do understand there are a few Mac owners who also own PCs and are
currently playing EverQuest, who would like to keep their PC characters and
move them to Mac servers. Unfortunately for the reasons discussed here that
would not seem to be fair to new Mac users playing for the first time.
Q. With PC and Mac users on separate servers, won¹t the Mac server have less
players?
A. We will scale the number of Mac EQ servers using the same balance factors
we do for PC, resulting in roughly the same player densities per server.
This way there will always be plenty of other Mac EQ users to play with.
Q. What kind of machine requirements will EQ/Mac have?
A. It is still too early to establish the machine requirements but we are
interested in making EverQuest generally accessible for the Mac audience. We
have performed internal testing on the basic EQ client and graphics on the
entry level iMac (700Mhz G4/128MB RAM/Geforce 2MX). We are initially
estimating that it will require a processor of 600Mhz or higher, at least
128MB of RAM, and an OpenGL compatible graphics card with 16MB of RAM. Due
to the wide variety of graphic detail level options for EverQuest,
activating optional features will likely require more memory and processor
power. EverQuest for the Mac is being developed exclusively for OS X.
Q. Who is developing EverQuest for the Mac?
A. Sony Online Entertainment has enlisted Westlake Interactive, an
established developer and provider of numerous conversions of software
entertainment titles for the Mac platform, to convert EverQuest to the Mac.
quote:
Aanicat's unholy Backstreet Boys obsession manifested in:
um.. and the summerized version of this is...
Max users will sue verant because of the computer varity of racism 
Joke kids..I really don't care either way.
well it is a mac.. and they suck...
(Yes i've had experiance with them, unfortunatly)
They look at letter like that and go, "Bahahaha omfg noob stfu and give us monies bitch". 
Humor Disclaimer
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quote:
This one time, at The Otaku Penguin camp:
quote:
Quite simply, your not
putting a 110% effort in making Everquest available for Mac.
God forbid they should put work into a platform that isnt designed for games IN THE FIRST PLACE, let alone not put full effort into what will most likely be a flop project. ESPECIALLY if Mac users have different servers.
The big difference between a newbie Mac user and a newbie PC user is that the PC user has always had the ability to join if they wanted, so if they're a newbie now when everyone has done so much, then it's not really unfair, because they chose not to join.
But the Mac users haven't been able to do anything, because it hasn't been available for their OS. So it's only fair they be given the chance to be the first to do things on servers and gain prestige and nice items, becuase they didn't stay away from choice like the PC users, but inability to even play.
I think it's a very fair move on Sony's part. If they didn't give a damn for Mac users, then they'd just have thrust them into the fray. I think this shows they're at least trying to think of them. [ 08-23-2002: Message edited by: Lyinar Ka`Bael ]
Lyinar Ka`Bael, Piney Fresh Druidess - Luclin
As a matter of fact, I doubt AppleTalk could even handle it. There is TOO much it would have to instantaneously translate. I would be willing to bet a new proprietary mediator application between the programs would have to be created.
But ask yourself, is it worth the expense? I don't begruge mac users their choice of platform. It's all about choice. But, the truth is Mac users are severely outnumbered by PC users. And should SOE really have to fork out ass-tons of money just to let the minority play the game with everyone else.
In all honesty Mac Users should be happy that SOE is even making the game accesible to them.
It would be nice if they could play with us, yes. I'd prefer it if the Mac Users got to play with the main EQ public. But I don't think their taking enough into consideration before making their 'demands'. [ 08-23-2002: Message edited by: Woody ]
quote:
Woody had this to say about Punky Brewster:
If the communication between Mac and PC platforms is still AppleTalk... then I'm sure Verant would have some MAJOR issues to deal with in trying to make the servers function together so that Mac users could play with PC users.
We're not working at the level of communication where AppleTalk resides. AppleTalk is a small network protocol for direct client-to-client communication (and largely dead already anyhow, I believe), whereas in order to communicate to the EQ servers over the Internet, MacEQ has one option: TCP/IP.
There's no direct client-to-client communication in EQ, everything is done through the server, so there is no more technical difficulty in having Mac and PC users on the same game server as there is in having Mac and PC users viewing web pages from the same web server.
The reason Verant is making a seperate server for Mac users is most likely because they don't believe they can keep the Mac version and the PC version synced patch-for-patch at all times (since the two versions will have a code base that diverges anywhere from just a little bit to a whole freaking lot) -- any patches to the EQ client may have to be written twice; and I don't think they want be held back on overall development by the increased time patching two seperate clients will take.
Having seperate servers gives them the luxury of having each team work on their own schedule. [ 08-23-2002: Message edited by: Taran ]
quote:
Woody said this about your mom:
If the communication between Mac and PC platforms is still AppleTalk... then I'm sure Verant would have some MAJOR issues to deal with in trying to make the servers function together so that Mac users could play with PC users.
Whoa, whoa, whoa, hold it right there.
AppleTalk, EtherTalk, and other clones are only used for Mac-to-Mac networking. However , there are utilities that allow PCs to use AppleTalk, just like there are utilities that allow Macs to use NetBIOS, and Linux modules to mount the Mac HFS+ or use AppleTalk.
However, I'm pretty sure the MacOS uses Open Transport (I have no idea why it's Open.), which uses TCP/IP for, well, TCP/IP (and internet) needs. As such, people just use standard TCP/IP services like FTP and Telnet to communicate with Macs.
I'm pretty sure they're just keeping it separate to save themselves the hassle of maintaining two different patch levels at all times, considering the code'll probably be radically different.
As for my feelings on it... I didn't whine for EQ when I was on my G3, I bought a PC. 
#1: Mac Users should take what they can get. Mac Only EQ is better than No-EQ. But no, people seem to think that if they're going to get SOMETHING, they should take it, then bitch about how it's not good enough.
#2: Yeah, there is a certain validity to saying that it will be more balanced on a server where everyone is starting from scratch. Besides, it's not like they'll have it nearly as hard as it used to be when starting from scratch.
All in all, I think the person sending the E-mail to Verant seemed abit presumptuous and abit self-centered. I mean, do you really expect Verant to give "110%" to a MacEQ? Given the playerbase available in Macs compared to PCs, I think a 50% effort might be abit generous.
I have nothing against Macs, they're just not my choice. I suck at graphics editing, I just need Internet Access, Word Processing, and my Games, and Mac delivers in 2.25/3.00 of those, I feel.
I'm not waging a war of ideologies, but Mac Users need to realize that they're not as important to the Computer Industry as they think they are, and PC users need to realize that Macs aren't just pieces of junk used by losers trying to be l337.
But their forte is not games. So gaming companies aren't going to cater to them as much.
I do think the patching issue is a very good point to bring up. I still do believe it's also in some part to balance things for Mac users by giving them a fresh start, though. But more than this, I think, is silly for a Mac user to expect.
Lyinar Ka`Bael, Piney Fresh Druidess - Luclin
They knew they weren't getting a game machine. They knew it was a different operating system, different protocols, different languages in some respects. They knew if they got games at all, they wouldn't get them when they first came out.
They made their bed, in other words, and now they have to lay in it.
And the technological issue, and the fairness issues are moot. If I was new to EQ and bought a copy of the game to play right now for PC, I'd be getting the same basic game as the Mac users. So it's not a fairness thing. And the technological issues could be worked out if it was really that important.
But they're not. It's a matter of inertia. They have something that works now. Why bother messing with it? It's easier to add something extra that's separate. Bitch allllll you like and it won't change a damned thing. Don't like it, don't play. Macs aren't gaming machines. Never have been, never will be so long as the majority of the market buys and continues to buy PC's, which are better-made for gaming purposes.
sigpic courtesy of This Guy, original modified by me
quote:
Lyinar Ka`Bael stopped beating up furries long enough to write:
Macs are great systems for what they're good in. In graphics they can't be beaten.
That was true a few years ago, but now basically everything's been at least ported to the PC.
quote:
Rabidbunnylover had this to say about Reading Rainbow:
That was true a few years ago, but now basically everything's been at least ported to the PC.
In fact, most 3D rendering programs are PC exclusive.
They're already second class computer users
quote:
And I was all like 'Oh yeah?' and Skaw was all like:
I'm expecting another cost increase to pay for that server thats only populated by enough people to comprise a full group
If the Mac-only server is smaller than Stormhammer at all times, is that funny or sad?
Also, what if the Mac users want their own premium server?
It'd be like..."Thunderspork"
sigpic courtesy of This Guy, original modified by me
While the enemy distracts themselves with laughter, BAM! Gouge out their eyes like so muck cantelope!
Still, it would have nothing on the Automated Bootspork of Doom in Chex Quest.
Now, as far as Macs for graphics is concerned, saying they can't be beaten is innacurate. Macs and PCs function at the same level regarding graphics. At some point LONG ago that might have been true; but, not anymore. If they were, I'd be using one to do GU Commission work.
The only reason they were considered better then was because of the programs. Quark, Photoshop, Illustrator were all exclusive to the Mac. That's no longer the case. And back when Mac was considered the best computer for graphics, Amiga was better by far (and would be godlike now if they hadn't bottomed out).
That's not me raining on Macs or Mac Users though. Like I said, it's a matter of preference. I'd just as soon use a Mac to play with photoshop as I would a PC. It doesn't matter to me. A computer is a computer... to me atleast.
Prior to this they didn't even have the option to play at all. I seriously doubt there are that many PC owners with MACs that want to switch.
It actually isnt a bad idea to give MAC people fresh servers since the vast majority of them will be new.
Ferrel!
And as far as I recall, you get the fun big-endian little-endian crap too which would make all EQ data files between the PC and the Mac binary incompatible - or a good deal of them anyway if they use words or floats to store info.
ben(at)netmastering(dot)nl
Lets address several of the points made.
First, there were several comments about the networking protocols of Macs vs PC's. Why this is an issue here is beyond me. The issue is bringing more people into gaming regardless of what pc they are using. Mac networking is identical to PCs. EQ is based on TCP/IP by the fact that it is played over the internet. So networking isnt an issue.
Second, there were some comments about Macs not being a gaming platform. Well, the same goes for viruses. Over 100,000 different viruses (macro, worms, trojan horses, et.al.) exist for Windows, with at least 2 appearing every day. The Mac has about 100 of them (including Macro viruses). The point here is that market drives everything. The common comparison is the VCR and Betamax vs VHS. The end is that the inferior VHS dominates the market because it caters to the masses. Likewise, Apple was stupid and didnt cater as our friend Bill did. Result: a fairytail paycheck for Bill and the number two position for Steve Jobs (which is still damn good if you ask me). But the issue is more complex than that. THe technology market place is now in a depression. Yes, a depression. World Com is dying, Enron is down the tubes, AT&T is doing poorly, who hasnt heard of a technology company that hasnt gone bankrupt or is about to Well, there is Microsoft, Dell and Apple at the top of the heap reaping in profits DESPITE the horrible market place. AND this is the reason why Macs are suddenly appealing to many developers, especially game developers. Apple computers and Dell computers are the only companies that are makign a profit selling computers at this time. With this in mind, and the fact that 14% of the hits on my web site are Mac OSX based, it leads me to believe that there is a market there afterall, albiet smaller than Windows. But of a hundred million hits on my site, 14 million is a pretty good market to tap. Likewise, the development environment for Mac OSX is phenominal. Its based on BSD Unix. And we all can conceed that the most brilliant and forward thinking hackers are in the Unix arena. MacOSX, unlike its predecessor operating systems, is very open and very understandable by many programmers. Every Unix program can run, or can be made to run in Mac OSX with ease. Likewise, when it comes to porting Windows applications to OSX, it is worlds easier than to the older operating systems. So again, looking at market indicators, millions of people are buying macs for whatever reason. Millions are kids that play games. For a pitance, EQ is being converted from Win to Mac to take advantage of this market, not to satisfy anybodys whining.
So market really isnt an issue.
THere was a comment about Apple hardware not being "made" for gaming. Aside from the Game Cube, the Play Station, and the X Box, there are no Personal COmputers that are made for gaming. Games are made for computers. Any COmputer. Lets look at the video processing component of most Everquest players machines. Likely there is a plethora of Nvidia Gforce 4 players out there. And these graphic cards work, and are installed on both PC's and Macs. THe issue is not sound, because there really isnt that much of a sound component to EQ. IF there was, the Mac, the most prevalent machine in the music industry, would be able to handle it. As for the processor, the Mac's Power PC G4 is more than capable to handle any of the EQ graphics. Where my pentium III 500 would choke on EQ new interface, my G4 400Mhz Powermac would chew right through the graphics generated. So the issue really isnt hardware.
So aside from the many unsubstantiated comments, I only saw two that really addressed the issue. It would seem fair that the patching issues would create a problem from a purely LOGISTICAL approach. Everquest for Mac isnt written by Sony or Verant. Its created by Westlake Entertainment. I am not sure who writes the PC version, but I am willing to bet that there is minimal contact between the two programming camps. Lets face it, most of the patches are pretty inane addressing bugs. Others address game enhancements. THe bug fixes would not be an issue because the Mac, as well as the PC would have different buggy issues relative to their own client software. The issue resides in game enhancements. And the answer is simple: a coordinated project management schedule to ensure that issues regarding game enhancement are given to both programming teams in a timely schedule. Its really nothing more than a management issue. And this isnt too much to expect from Sony, is it??
The final comment is that instead of complaining about whos platform is better, why not support new users to the game. The more the merrier. Unless you feel threatened. Then I challenge you to a duel you sissy!!! :P
They'd have to delay development on alot of stuff for the PC users if they made the servers alike due to having develop patches for two clients simultaneously (shit, they're doing poorly enough as it is). They don't want to make inconveniences for their BY FAR biggest customer base (Hi, PC users!) just to satisfy a vastly inferior amount of users.
And thus, they don't! CONCEPT! It's not a technical problem, it's just a choice they made.
quote:
Lady T had this to say about Reading Rainbow:
Its really nothing more than a management issue. And this isnt too much to expect from Sony, is it??
Yes. Yes it is.
quote:
Lady T attempted to be funny by writing:
The final comment is that instead of complaining about whos platform is better, why not support new users to the game. The more the merrier. Unless you feel threatened. Then I challenge you to a duel you sissy!!! :P
Why, it's more fun to make the hyper-sensitive MAC users feel segregated.
As it creates posts like these =)
Macs are not an Inferior Gaming platform. They do not however have the Dev support that PCs have. And therein lies the problem.
Macs are not and probably never will be as large as PCs in the computer market. Then again neither was Amiga, and it was supperior for graphics than MAC or PC.
People seem to get stuck with the idea that MACs suck since there are not as many of them as PCs. This is not true. They are just as good if not better than PCs in EVERY catagory. But it all comes down to what people buy them for.
I have both.
A 1.6GH PC and a 733 MAC.
The PC makes a great Gaming machine but frankly I find the Mac is a far superior Graphics, Video, and Sound machine.
Software and hardware are both geared more towards this end. And if I want to do any gaming that is fine also. I can find some great games for it as well, just not as many as my PC. But the ones I do have look just as good. Q3 is a great example. I can run with all Graphics options maxed at 1600x1400 and I get no slowdown on my Mac even though I am only running a 733mhz and a Geforce2.
Now as for EQ on the mac. I am kind of upset at this as well. I would like nothing more than to be able to play on my Mac and my PC on the same server. However I also see the Technical problems they could run into.
Personally I think they should start it with a Mac only server, and then after a few months open the other servers to Mac users.
quote:
Lady T's fortune cookie read:
It is so apparent that this area is dominated by adolescents and people that really dont understand the point of the original post.
I should point out right now that one of the people you're calling an adolescent is the owner of this board, and has commented on this thread, and it's probably not a good idea to go blindly insulting him or his friends just because we don't agree with your point of view. It also doesn't make a very good newbie impression.
Lyinar Ka`Bael, Piney Fresh Druidess - Luclin
quote:
Lady T wrote this then went back to looking for porn:
It is so apparent that this area is dominated by adolescents and people that really dont understand the point of the original post.Lets address several of the points made.
First, there were several comments about the networking protocols of Macs vs PC's. Why this is an issue here is beyond me. The issue is bringing more people into gaming regardless of what pc they are using. Mac networking is identical to PCs. EQ is based on TCP/IP by the fact that it is played over the internet. So networking isnt an issue.
Aside from the rather snobbish insult...
Wrong. Mac networking and PC networking are different. These days both can talk TCP/IP which is needed to play EQ. Then we get to the point of binary incompatibility. Ever wonder why no Mac app runs on your Windows machine and vice versa?
That's because (and let me put it simple here) those little thingamajigs that cause thingamabobs to happen are wired differently. And so different they are, that if one were to make both a Mac version and a Windows version of an application, you'd end up with 2 separate applications with 2 different teams working on them. They just share the name and the looks.
And then we get to EQ. Which is a complex application. A very complex one.
First: Windows EQ uses DirectX for graphics. A Mac has no DirectX. So there's one problem area.Graphics. Need to have a different graphics engine.
And undoubtedly there are much other problems that crop up.
So unless you have extensive experience as a project manager for Mac/Win applications, or you are an extremely gifted programmer, you have no right to bitch, and you certainly have no right to insult anyone.
Now, please, do us all a favor, and go back wherever it is you came from, and leave us alone.
ben(at)netmastering(dot)nl
