quote:

---

Emil stopped beating up furries long enough to write:
He doesn't destroy the attitude by using the word in a flip remark. He helps to propogate it.

---

Emil sit down, it was a funny remark, and a quote from a movie, Let it die.

[ 04-24-2002: Message edited by: Red Mage ]

What do slums and drugs have to do with racism?

Are you saying drugs are something foisted upon a poor black community by evil white overlords hoping to keep them down?

No, racial quotas are not universally illegal. As a matter of fact, whenever a jurisdiction moves to eliminate them, it's fought tooth-and-nail by the NAACP and ACLU.

And don't count your experience so much higher than others'. I've seen exactly what RPC is talking about. It happens. I've also see the discrimination you're talking about. It happens, too.

Both are bad.

But this strays from the initial point: what, exactly, do you think Snoota did wrong?

quote:

---

Emil painfully thought these words up:

He doesn't destroy the attitude by using the word in a flip remark. He helps to propogate it.

---

Not.

Actually, it's hypersensitive people like you who give that word power.

quote:

---

Emil thought this was the Ricky Martin Fan Club Forum and wrote:
Emil: Deth where do you live? It must be a really nice place, I should move there, cause your not talking about the country I live in. I have experienced racism (latino not black), and I have seen racism first hand. What some of the OLDER people remember is segregation, what some of the younger people know are slums, drugs, crime, etc..

---

Uh...exqueeze me? Why are you jumping down my throat? I made one observation and a smart alec comment about Sage's sig pic to add to his point. If you want to talk to me about racial prejudices and how hard shit is, go read up on your Native Americans and how shit's been. I've never lived on a reservation before but I have relatives who have. That's right. 1/4 Mohawk Indian, Iroquois Nation. Don't blow sunshine up my ass about how latinos and blacks get mistreated. I know how it is. My mother gets called Squaw and worse in public and where she works by rednecks and ignorant assholes because of how she looks and how she chooses to display her heritage. And if you don't know what Squaw means go look up where the term comes from in a dictionary.

Go digging in anyone's heritage far enough and you'll find someone who's been oppressed. You can either identify yourself with that body and cry oppression for all your fucking life and moan about things or you can laugh off the stupidity and live your life on your own merits. I don't go around tooting my horn about my racial background (I think this the first time I ever have on the boards). Far as anyone around here knew I was a white boy Yankee from Massachusetts, parents from western New York, who lives currently in North Carolina. I'm long-winded, I'm intelligent, and I'm in college. I didn't get in on native american quotas, I don't get financial aid based on my racial heritage. I got here on my own merits. So don't jump on me, buddy boy, when you want to make a point. Read the posts, and think about your response. You never know WHO you might be pissing off.

quote:

---

Bloodsage was naked while typing this:
RPC,

It's not quite correct to say that racism is dead, except that aimed at white males through affirmative action.

Here in the South, it's a whole different world.

I think it'll be another generation or three before people truly come to their senses.

~~~

Emil,

What did Snoota do wrong, exactly? Use a word you don't like? Get over it.

He didn't use it in any derogatory manner at all.

Just thought I might raise a point in the use of the word, I won't EVER get over it, but I have no beef with Snoota.

~~~

In general,

Anyone who hasn't already should look into the true history of slavery. It's an interesting story, and not all the bad guys are white.

Slavery, it turns out, is not something white dudes inflicted on black dudes. No European country raided Africa taking slaves. Roots, in short, got it wrong.

The vast majority of slaves shipped to Europe and America were captured by other Africans--sometimes deep in the interior--and brought to the coast for sale to Europeans. By the local African government.

None of it was done by force; it was by mutual agreement, usually.

Just a history moment.

---

*sigh*, reading the parts of history that suit your argument is nice, yes there were African slave traders, no argument there, but you need a market and the whole world played a part.

None of it was done by force? have you ever heard of the middle passage (the ride between the Africa and Europe/S. America/N. America? Where human beings are stacked up like animals? the untold number of deaths (estimates range around 20 million, but no one can be sure.)

And wow, did you fall off the logic train? If all humans are equal, then are you suggesting that black people wanted to be slaves? Do you want to be a slave? Or should that mentality fall only to savages?

quote:

---

A sleep deprived Emil stammered:
*sigh*, reading the parts of history that suit your argument is nice, yes there were African slave traders, no argument there, but you need a market and the whole world played a part.

None of it was done by force? have you ever heard of the middle passage (the ride between the Africa and Europe/S. America/N. America? Where human beings are stacked up like animals? the untold number of deaths (estimates range around 20 million, but no one can be sure.)

And wow, did you fall off the logic train? If all humans are equal, then are you suggesting that black people wanted to be slaves? Do you want to be a slave? Or should that mentality fall only to savages?

---

Um, what? Bloodsage wasn't dealing with that to support his argument, it was just an interesting historical note, it's no more than it claims to be, a commonly unknown fact, that just points out that whites didn't invent slavery alone.

By "None of it was done by force" he meant that the europeans weren't forcing the african traders to gather slaves, they were doing it on their own. He didn't mean that the slaves themselves weren't forced. I'm not sure where you're getting that last sentence there, it seems to have nothing to do with the post at all.

Arguing while emotion clouds your brain is a dangerous pasttime. I suggest you take a deep breath, calm down, and start reading people's responses closely, rather than through the lens of your preconceived notions.

In case you truly need it spelled out: African slaves were taken by force--usually as the result of tribal warfare--sold many times to other Africans as they were taken from the interior to the coast, then sold by the local African rulers to European slavers through trade agreements.

It's not like African tribes started taking slaves in the interior due to European demand, dude. They had been doing it long before Europeans came--it's just that they could get a nice price.

But wait; there's more!

The tribes in the interior taking and selling slaves never dealt with--or probably even heard of--the European powers. They were doing what they'd always done. It was the coastal leaders getting rich off the European slave trade, for the most part.

As a matter of fact, Africans are still in the slave business, while we evil decendants of the Europeans have been out of it for more than a century. Hmmm.

Of course no one is defending slavery in any form. So don't get self-righteous. But the fact remains that Europeans treated slaves no worse than they were treated at home.

Do you even read these boards? No one gets away with racist remarks around here. That's the point Snoota was making. And someone else before him. Had they not, I would have.

So take your personal little grievances elsewhere, grow up, and quit projecting your prejudices onto others. Before this gets ugly.

quote:

---

Bloodsage had this to say about Robocop:
Emil,

Arguing while emotion clouds your brain is a dangerous pasttime. I suggest you take a deep breath, calm down, and start reading people's responses closely, rather than through the lens of your preconceived notions.

In case you truly need it spelled out: African slaves were taken by force--usually as the result of tribal warfare--sold many times to other Africans as they were taken from the interior to the coast, then sold by the local African rulers to European slavers through trade agreements.

It's not like African tribes started taking slaves in the interior due to European demand, dude. They had been doing it long before Europeans came--it's just that they could get a nice price.

But wait; there's more!

The tribes in the interior taking and selling slaves never dealt with--or probably even heard of--the European powers. They were doing what they'd always done. It was the coastal leaders getting rich off the European slave trade, for the most part.

As a matter of fact, Africans are still in the slave business, while we evil decendants of the Europeans have been out of it for more than a century. Hmmm.

Of course no one is defending slavery in any form. So don't get self-righteous. But the fact remains that Europeans treated slaves no worse than they were treated at home.

Do you even read these boards? No one gets away with racist remarks around here. That's the point Snoota was making. And someone else before him. Had they not, I would have.

So take your personal little grievances elsewhere, grow up, and quit projecting your prejudices onto others. Before this gets ugly.

---

Thanks Dad,

Your condescending attitude may scare away the kids, but do nothing to me. Snoota said something I didn't like, I did a small rant, and it turned into this. I guess what took me aback is not someone actually saying it but the response I got for pointing it out.

yeah, I do get emotional with this issue fuckchop (I'm sory I couldn't resist ).

Everyone has their cross to bear, this one is mine, and I don't care if the whole internet disagrees with me. My personal experience is the most important one, because I'm making the case from a personal standpoint. I do get affected by people using the word "nigger" and I react to it.

As I said before I have no problem with Snoota. But what's shocking is that you guys were waiting for someone to say "hey that offended me" and then you pounce. Then everything from affirmative action to Slavery came out.

If you don't believe in something then you believe in nothing. And I believed Snoota made a mistake, I said my piece, and am willing to argue with anyone over Affirmative Action, or Slavery, but as to what Snoota said, he said it, it's over, and funny thing is, he hasn't even responded.

quote:

---

Emil attempted to be funny by writing:
but as to what Snoota said, he said it, it's over, and funny thing is, he hasn't even responded.

---

Actually, the funny thing is what he said.

It was so funny it didn't need a followup.

And for the record, Emil, I am not in any way shape or form racist. I just found her placement of the word 'but' to be oddly amusing. In fact, I am probably the anti-racist. I grew up in the middle of Chicago, and the only other white people I knew were my family. I could have called my friends 'nigger' all day and none of them would even blink.

[ 04-24-2002: Message edited by: Comrade Snoota ]

quote:

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Comrade Snoota thought this was the Ricky Martin Fan Club Forum and wrote:
LOOK WHAT I HAVE DONE!

---

Kagrama sets himself on fire

lOK WAHT i haev done oh waiet i shouldaent haev done thsi AIEEEEE MY BODY SI ON FIAR!!!!1

quote:

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Comrade Snoota probably says this to all the girls:
And for the record, Emil, I am not in any way shape or form racist. I just found her placement of the word 'but' to be oddly amusing. In fact, I am probably the anti-racist. I grew up in the middle of Chicago, and the only other white people I knew were my family. I could have called my friends 'nigger' all day and none of them would even blink.

---

Quit lying you racist bastard.... We all know you're an evil fuckchop racist bastard... You can't hide from us!

Note to other fuckchops: This was sarcasm... fuckchop.

quote:

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Emil had this to say about Reading Rainbow:

Emil: Ok, Gydyon I need your help here, aren't quotas illegal, and haven't they been illegal for quite some time? Besides, the greatest beneficiary to Affirmative Action has been WHITE women.
[/QB]

---

My freakin school system uses quotas, I didn't get into the nearst elementry school when I moved here because I was white, and rich. How is that not racism to me? They told me I was white so I couldn't goto that school.

Racism is fubared anyways, if I said Nigger or even Black in my school, I'd probly be beatin or killed on site. If I say 'yeah that black guy' I'm a racist. But if some other raced kid said that white cracker or casper etc. I wouldn't mind it, all white people do not represent me, you can't call me by my race. I think all people that consider everything racist need to lighten up.

quote:

---

Emil impressed everyone with:
Thanks Dad,

Your condescending attitude may scare away the kids, but do nothing to me. Snoota said something I didn't like, I did a small rant, and it turned into this. I guess what took me aback is not someone actually saying it but the response I got for pointing it out.

yeah, I do get emotional with this issue fuckchop (I'm sory I couldn't resist ).

Everyone has their cross to bear, this one is mine, and I don't care if the whole internet disagrees with me. My personal experience is the most important one, because I'm making the case from a personal standpoint. I do get affected by people using the word "nigger" and I react to it.

As I said before I have no problem with Snoota. But what's shocking is that you guys were waiting for someone to say "hey that offended me" and then you pounce. Then everything from affirmative action to Slavery came out.

If you don't believe in something then you believe in nothing. And I believed Snoota made a mistake, I said my piece, and am willing to argue with anyone over Affirmative Action, or Slavery, but as to what Snoota said, he said it, it's over, and funny thing is, he hasn't even responded.

---

"Excuse me, I speak jive."

Allow me to translate:

Hello, my name is Emil, and I'm a bigot who thinks everyone in the world should cater to my every whim out of fear that I'll get huffy and call them racist.

I don't really care about the facts of a situation, so don't bother bringing them up. I believe what I believe, and you should believe the same thing. Or I'll call you racist.

I haven't really got a cross to bear, since that implies a burden imposed by an external power. Really, I have a skewed world-view, and I simply refuse to move into the 21st century with the rest of humanity. I have voluntarily assumed the mantle of oppression in order to have an excuse to claim special status.

While I object to the word "nigger," regardless of how it is used, it's really people like me who give it power, becasue I throw a fit whenever I see it. The word itself has evil, magic powers in my world, and even if it's used for good to highlight, ridicule, and stop racism, I feel it my duty to mount my high horse and do battle with everyone else.

Even though others are much more tolerant than I am, I'm obviously in the right, since I'm Latino. No one else has ever experienced racism like I have, and therefore nothing anyone else says counts. Even though I have many of my facts wrong, and willfully misinterpret those I manage to get right, no one should challenge my instant, unthinking judgments.

So don't try to change by bigoted opinions with facts, truth, or informed social analysis. I won't be back, I've said my thing, and I'm retreating back into my bigotry, now.

*holds up this thread and a 15-foot pole*

I am posting just to say that I am not touching this, with this.

Thanks for your attention.

[ 04-24-2002: Message edited by: Gydyon ]

Allow me to translate:

nah, I won't let you translate for me, we're two different people, you couldn't possibly understand where i am coming from.

and besides my opinion is as valid as anyone's on this board.

does it look like I'm running?

quote:

---

When the babel fish was in place, it was apparent Gydyon said:
I saw my name in this thing a couple of times.

*holds up this thread and a 15-foot pole*

I am posting just to say that I am not touching this, with this.

Thanks for your attention.

---

For a lawyer, you sure hate to argue

*Just a joke, I do not think Gydyon is a racist"

quote:

---

Emil probably says this to all the girls:

For a lawyer, you sure hate to argue

*Just a joke, I do not think Gydyon is a racist"

---

I LOVE to argue. Just not here. I come to EC to not argue. I do that every day of my life and I relax from it here.

All opinions are not equal. Simply because you have an opinion doesn't make it a valid one.

Welcome to reality.

If your only defense of these vaunted "opinions" of yours is, "You're not Latino, so you can't possibly understand," then, well, let's just say their validity is questionable.

If what you're actually speaking of are beliefs, well, you're still wrong, since you're trying to impose them upon others. Last I checked, you have no particular constitutional right not to be offended.

Your behavior in this thread has been childish, unreasoning, and intolerant. Ironic, given your alleged beliefs.

I guess bigotry is only a bad thing if you can't profit from it?

The fact is that everyone needs to get over the very concept of race. It's meaningless, and, as you've amply demonstrated, does no one any good. It has no basis in genetics or culture or anything else. It was simply a convenient tool primitive people used as an excuse to feel superior, excuse war, and as basis to enslave each other. Everyone did it. We must get over such archaic concepts.

Only then will society be able to move on.

quote:

---

Emil spewed forth this undeniable truth:
nah, I won't let you translate for me, we're two different people, you couldn't possibly understand where i am coming from.

---

I understand perfectly where you're "coming from", and I think you're whining like a child and acting like the type of person who makes racism possible.

quote:

---

Bloodsage was listening to Cher while typing:
No, Emil, you've confused opinion and belief.

All opinions are not equal. Simply because you have an opinion doesn't make it a valid one.

Emil: And simply cause you disagree with it doesn't make it invalid.

Welcome to reality.

Emil: Thanks, can i get a coke and a burger? Living in unreality can a leave a man hungry.

If your only defense of these vaunted "opinions" of yours is, "You're not Latino, so you can't possibly understand," then, well, let's just say their validity is questionable.

Emil: I know what I feel, I know there are people of color who agree with me. There are countless books describing the effects of race and class. And I know racism still exists. I have personally felt it, and sometimes still do. And there are some latinos that would disagree with me, but there are many more that would agree.

If what you're actually speaking of are beliefs, well, you're still wrong, since you're trying to impose them upon others. Last I checked, you have no particular constitutional right not to be offended.

Emil: But I do have a constitutional right to speak my mind. And I have a right to dissent from the popular opinion as well. If Drysart wants to ban me, fine, you wanna flame me fine, but please, if he has the right to say nigger i have the right to say WTF?

Your behavior in this thread has been childish, unreasoning, and intolerant. Ironic, given your alleged beliefs.

Emil: I may have went overboard on the slavery bit, I was hot and under pressure at work. However, the only person I have really insulted is you, by calling you a fuckchop. I disagreed with other viewpoints and tried to debate (or argue) in a polite manner. I saw a thread last night with people trying to be reasonable with you. don't talk to me about childish behavior man, your a hypocrite if you do.

I guess bigotry is only a bad thing if you can't profit from it?

Emil: Don't even know what that means.

The fact is that everyone needs to get over the very concept of race. It's meaningless, and, as you've amply demonstrated, does no one any good. It has no basis in genetics or culture or anything else. It was simply a convenient tool primitive people used as an excuse to feel superior, excuse war, and as basis to enslave each other. Everyone did it. We must get over such archaic concepts.

Emil: Yeah, great, when we do let me know ok?

Only then will society be able to move on.

---

Amen brother

OH HO HO! I R A RACIST BASTARD!$!$~!!!!

quote:

---

Comrade Snoota wrote this then went back to looking for porn:
I understand perfectly where you're "coming from", and I think you're whining like a child and acting like the type of person who makes racism possible.

---

Thanks Comrade, I know I'm responsible for racism, your right....what was I thinking?

a) Someone mentions Affirmative action sucks...Yay, right on, fucking quotas

b) Someone mentions slavery - yeah get over yourself, that was like a million years ago.

c) Someone mentions racism - Race? it doesn't even exist. Why are we still talking about it? People who talk about it are the ones causing racism.

Snoota says nigger - he has every right to say it, and if you want to complain look at a), b), and c).

Talk about ironic

Now, verbal-racism is not the only kind. Even if nobody allowed words to hold meaning, there would still be people who 'hate' blacks and beat them while wearing white hoods. Which is very, very, very very very very very rare.

However; the majority of racism is a guy getting drunk with his buddies on a weekend and making comments like, 'They gave that stupid nigger a promotion over me just because he's black, he needs to be out picking my cotton where he belongs.' When you realize 'nigger' or 'spic' or 'chink' or 'honkey'(to use your examples ) are simply words and holds no power what so ever, you will realize why people who take offense at simple words are the reason racism is allowed to flourish.

I dealt with racism my entire life. It's part of why I don't let words affect me now. I was not exagerating earlier when I said I didn't know a single white person(Of course I had SEEN a few, but never knew any personally. The only one who lived within four miles of me was a 60 year old Widower who lived a few blocks down) outside of my family for the first fifteen years of my life. I was 'that white kid'. Not many people wanted to be my friend simply because I was different than everyone else. I was hurt. Both physically, and, yes, with words. The physical thing only actually happened twice. But for fifteen years I was tormented with WORDS. Then I came to realize, the words only have as much power as I give them.

"Sticks and stones may break my bones, but words will never hurt me" is a rhyme ever child knows, and is one of the truest things ever said.

quote:

---

Mad Psycho obviously shouldn't have said:
she is a bitch that pretty much changes the story every time she tells it to someone.

---

Wonder how long it'll take them to notice...

At least have the courtesy to distinguish your reply from the text to which you are replying. I don't care enough about you or what you have to say to wade through poorly formatted text in the vain hope you'll say something worthwhile.

Additionally, if you want to be taken seriously, you should learn the difference between "your" and "you're." It's not our job to puzzle out what you really mean amidst the poor formatting and atrocious grammar. It's your job to make your point clearly enough to hold up your end of an intelligent conversation.

Yet again, you object to the mere presence of a word, regardless of context or meaning. At the very least, that's an ignorant way to approach conversation. At best, it brands you unsophisticated, narrow, and coarse.

Can you get it through your head that Snoota aimed that word at no one? That the way it was used did more to highlight and frown upon racism than any of your ill-informed, angsty outbursts?

Are you also asserting that there is some factual basis for the concept of race? If so, you'll need to explain it, because you've chosen to argue with some pretty talented geneticists and sociologists.

Finally, point to exactly where I've been the least hypocritical. Anywhere. Your assertions aren't enough, in light of your demonstrated illogic and tendency toward unreasoned emotional outbursts.

Get over yourself. It's not your place to censor the rest of the world. Especially in circumstances like this, where the word to which you object so strongly was being put to good use.

You're probably one of the ignorant masses who threw a fit when the DC commissioner used the word "niggardly" a few years back, aren't you?

Time to pack up and sit down or go the way of Troodon and Ruvyen.

quote:

---

Emil's account was hax0red to write:
Thanks Comrade, I know I'm responsible for racism, your right....what was I thinking?

a) Someone mentions Affirmative action sucks...Yay, right on, fucking quotas

b) Someone mentions slavery - yeah get over yourself, that was like a million years ago.

c) Someone mentions racism - Race? it doesn't even exist. Why are we still talking about it? People who talk about it are the ones causing racism.

Snoota says nigger - he has every right to say it, and if you want to complain look at a), b), and c).

Talk about ironic

---

Don't be too quick to write off the people arguing against you like that. For point a), that was a single person's statement, no more. No one else argued against it because it wasn't really on the topic at hand. We've had debates about affirmative action before, it's quite a contreversial topic: if I remember correctly, the number of people for affirmative action outnumbered those against. Several of the people you're arguing against are among them.

For point b), no one was saying slavery wasn't a huge evil. No one is saying we should just get over it. Bloodsage's comment on the history of slavery seems, at least to me, to have been a quick move to divert some of the "Acts of the Evil white race against the innocent black race" conversations, which can show up often in these subjects. His move was a preemptive strike against that kind of talk, no more. No one advocates that we all just "get over it", and act like it never happened.

For point c) You agree that race is simply and artificial boundary between people, and doesn't exist as a fundemental difference between people. You said so yourself that it was something "everyone ... should have figured out thousands of years ago."

Their point was that what Snoota did was meant to cause awareness of what seemed an unconcious act of racism, not perpetuate a cycle of racism, like most uses of the word do. No one denies that the most common use of the word, as an off-hand label, is a bad thing that continues a cycle of racism. However, what Snoota did was the very opposite of this. By calling attention to it in the most effective way possible, by using an attention-grabbing word, he's tried to show just how bizzare a sentiment it is.

Note for Mad Psycho: From your comment, I take it that this was all about little more than a mistaken conjunction, and you had none of this in mind. Sorry about all this stuff on what was actually just an innocent comment after all, but the larger issue needs to be addressed. We'll all just remember that your comment was never intended to have the meaning people put on it.

[ 04-24-2002: Message edited by: Chalesm ]

Right on every point, as usual. I saw where the conversation was going, and decided to interject some real history to derail it.

That worked like a charm!

I'm glad you're back, dude. Without you to explain things, I was starting to feel bad, and thought about doing more teaching and less arguing. Arguing is more fun, though. Uh, so welcome back!

This was an attempt to take the 'flame war' out of the thread

Ozius

quote:

---

Ozimander J. Griswald was naked while typing this:
Ya know what's a freaky? Babies in the Blender. Yea..just imagine. A baby, floating around...in a blender. Woah.

This was an attempt to take the 'flame war' out of the thread

Ozius

---

Why does your sigpic seem so fitting?