quote:
And I was all like 'Oh yeah?' and Skaw was all like:
Boohoo.
Shut the FUCK up. I was asked a question, and I answered it.
quote:
Densetsu had this to say about pies:
They'd say, BEFORE they made their character, 'Why should I make a HUMAN Monk? I can level to 35 without leaving kunark, and after that I'll never NEED to visit a trainer again, hell, I can level to 60 without ever leaving Kunark. Plus there is always Brother Qwinn or Zephyl in the old world. With sneak, I'd never worry about merchant factions, and the main boat cities have sewers I can use to get to the docks. My downtime will be less due to the regen, I won't need to worry about being out of food with Forage, not being able to wear plate doesn't make that big of a difference as a monk. All I have to do to get around the damage output handicap is wield a set of weapons, and there are plenty of them better than my fists. Why was I considering a human?'
dont worry my brother made a human monk as his main, and hes a VERY seasoned EQr
so its not like people dont make human monks anymore 
quote:
Densetsu wrote, obviously thinking too hard:
They'd say, BEFORE they made their character, 'Why should I make a HUMAN Monk? I can level to 35 without leaving kunark, and after that I'll never NEED to visit a trainer again, hell, I can level to 60 without ever leaving Kunark. Plus there is always Brother Qwinn or Zephyl in the old world. With sneak, I'd never worry about merchant factions, and the main boat cities have sewers I can use to get to the docks. My downtime will be less due to the regen, I won't need to worry about being out of food with Forage, not being able to wear plate doesn't make that big of a difference as a monk. All I have to do to get around the damage output handicap is wield a set of weapons, and there are plenty of them better than my fists. Why was I considering a human?'
The same reason people make gnome warriors, troll shadowknights, erudite palladins, dark elf enchanters, etc. Some people want a challenge, and intentionally pick a race that isn't the best at a given class.
You can fight from 1 to 60 without leaving Kunark. But you still see iksars fighting in the old world. Why? Because fighting from 1 to 60 without leaving Kunark is possible, but extremely BORING!
Brother Qwinn and Zephyl no longer drop the Robe of the Lost Circle I hear, meaning iksar monks still have to work on their faction if they want their epic.
Sneak will help you deal with the merchants, but not with the NPCs you're KOS to near them. And those NPCs are slow to give up their hate of you, even after FD'ing multiple times.
Forage at 50 is not very reliable... take your iksar monk with no food or water and try to keep from getting hungry or thirsty while you keep getting "You fail to locate any food nearby."
So why am I considering a human? I can travel more freely throughout the world, and it would be more of a challenge... getting to high levels will mean more because it wasn't as easy.
There you go... human monks who do really well despite their disadvantes really have something to be proud of. It's not as easy in the short term to be a human monk rather than iksar monk. Most people wouldn't create a human monk for that reason, where an elite minority would still make a human monk EXACTLY for that same reason...
So human monks are still an elite group of people, if anything, more so because of the iksar. That human grandmaster can say "See, I picked the harder race and still made it to the top!" When there was only one race of monks, big deal, every monk had to work the same to get there... now iksar monks have to overcome the disadvantages of faction if they want their epic... it's no harder for a human than it was before the iksar came around.
So you didn't lose anything, you gained something. You're an elite class of monks who took the harder path and succeeded anyway.
That's why you'd make a human monk.
P.S. Oh yes, almost forgot about iksars' 20% exp penalty... that essentially balances their regen... iksars will have less downtime between battles, but humans will be getting more exp per battle... it pretty much cancels out in the end. [ 01-29-2002: Message edited by: Troodon ]
quote:
Maradön? had this to say about Pirotess:
Don't fret over stats.None of them have a dramatic enough effect to invalidate a character (or validate one, for that matter).
Even things like innate regen really boil down to only a minor advantage.
He speaks the truth.
A newbie Ogre Warrior with 150 STR fights a level 1 rat, with only his newbie sword and newbie tunic. He beats the crap out of the rat.
Then, a Half-Elf Warrior with 105 STR does the same. While the Half-Elf will miss more often than the Ogre because
of less STR, it isn't a massive loss.
quote:
Batutisz had this to say about Robocop:
...I never worked on faction to do my headbands and sashes. Qeynos and Freeport still hate my guts? How did I do this? I got an Enchanter to hand in my stuff for me, cause guess what? The headbands and sashes aren't no drop.
Sure, take the easy way out...
I take pride in the fact that I stubbornly killed deathfist orcs and sabertooth gnolls by the truckload, and dodged the attentions of Lt. Dagarok...
Heck, being stubborn is why I've mastered three tradeskills (one of them, brewing, to 202), am non-KOS in three cities where iksars normally are, and have mastered every language any playble race starts with (including Combine now, that vah shir start out masters of). I'm one of those people who enjoy the journey more than the destination, but that's just me...
If getting the robe's all you care about, sure, get someone else to turn them in for you. But I enjoyed being congratulated by the Freeport monk guild trainer when she presented me with the red sash in person.
quote:
Troodon had this to say about Matthew Broderick:
Brother Qwinn and Zephyl no longer drop the Robe of the Lost Circle I hear, meaning iksar monks still have to work on their faction if they want their epic.
I don't recall mentioning anything about RotLC. I don't know if you've ever noticed, but Qwinn and Zephyl will train you, no matter what race you are.
BTW, Zephyl always has, still does, and probably always will, drop the RotLC.
Qwinn NEVER did.
And yes, I even found the Raster camp to be fun. It's just that faction work isn't fun for me unless it's gotten while I'm doing something I want to die. IE raiding.
And FYI Troodon and Densetsu, Qwinn never dropped the RotLC like Dens said. However, Zephyl either rarely drops it or doesn't drop it at all now.
Oh...and another thing. Trade skills are another horrible waste of time. Huge money and time sink when I could be doing something else that's more fun, like hanging out and killing things with friends. [ 01-30-2002: Message edited by: Batutisz ]
quote:
Batutisz had this to say about Cuba:
And yes, I even found the Raster camp to be fun.
*BEEP* *BEEP*
Bullshit detector!
I spent half that camp with you, remember?
After the first two hours or so, none of us was having fun (apart from when your guildies barged in) [ 01-30-2002: Message edited by: Za'Yth ]
No, I didnt look at regen, innate ac, stats, or even take into account starting cities/faction issues.
I just did it because my old video card got pwned by Kunark. If I had the computer that I have now back then, I probably would have made an Iksar monk. *shrug*
quote:
Check out the big brain on Batutisz!
And FYI Troodon and Densetsu, Qwinn never dropped the RotLC like Dens said. However, Zephyl either rarely drops it or doesn't drop it at all now.
quote:
Troodon had this to say about Pirotess:
Forage at 50 is not very reliable... take your iksar monk with no food or water and try to keep from getting hungry or thirsty while you keep getting "You fail to locate any food nearby."
Actually, a little while ago they put in a change to Forage. If you are hungry/thristy, the next forage will provide food/water 100% of the time, no matter your skill.
Nifty, eh? Now if only you can turn off those damn "You are low on/out of food and drink" messages.
quote:
Batutisz wrote this then went back to looking for porn:
Well, I WOULD have done all that faction work, but then I realized that I'd be wasting my time in a game that is designed to be fun, doing something I don't find fun, and completely void the fact I'm playing the game to have fun in the first place.Oh...and another thing. Trade skills are another horrible waste of time. Huge money and time sink when I could be doing something else that's more fun, like hanging out and killing things with friends.
Well, to each his own... I actually find raising faction fun. Same way with tradeskills... Sure, killing things is the main thing you'll be doing in EQ, but it's not the only thing. I actually had fun working on tradeskills, especially ones less people try to master, like brewing (few people bother taking it past 200 like me, beacuase it's not especially practical past the point you can make tempers, except for that one coldain quest that requires high brewing).
Trade skills aren't a waste of time unless you don't want to do them... they do have practical uses, are a way to raise money (eventually, once you become good enough at it, but takes a huge time and money investment to make them profitable, if you want cash quickly, it's not the ay to go), and a nice break from just going around beating up mobs all day.
You don't like doing tradeskills, don't. But they're not a waste of time. They're just not for everyone.
quote:
Check out the big brain on JooJooFlop!
Actually, a little while ago they put in a change to Forage. If you are hungry/thristy, the next forage will provide food/water 100% of the time, no matter your skill.Nifty, eh? Now if only you can turn off those damn "You are low on/out of food and drink" messages.
Ooh, good one... when did they do that? Don't remember seeing that in a patch message, but they probably either didn't boher to day so or I missed it in those dozens of patches they made in December...
So, when you're desperate, it'll work for sure? Nice to know. But I can't remember the last time I was hungry or thirsty, except on very long corpse runs (like the time I died in Timorous Deep, and had to take the boat to my corpse!) I always stock my bag with a stack of hearty meals (most I made myself, since I'm a master baker, a stack of rat ear pies can keep you going quite a while). Also have a stack of Fuzzlecutter's Formula 5000, a nice long lasting drink that unfortuantely, you can only buy in West Freeport (Ping needs to start exporting the stuff!) Also put a Plains Pebble in the same bag as my food and drink, which is rumored to make it last longer, I've heard many people say it does. It might just be a placebo effect, but I'm pretty sure it's working, my food takes longer to run out before I carried it around, although it's only a slight effect, not very dramatic. Last bot not least, I forage all the time, and eat or drink right away what I forage (unless I'm too full to), to ease the burden on my more permanent food and drink supplies.
Except for the last part about foraging, human monks can do all this too... in fact everybody can, to stretch their food and drink supplies. If you're a ranger or druid, and can master foraging, you'll never had to buy food or drink in your life, once your foraging skill is high enough. Theoretically classes that can summon food or drink can do that too... but it's a strain on the mana and a bit time consuming, and the summoned food and drink is no rent, which means you have to do it again when you log on...
Point is, the only reasons you will ever go hungry or thirsty is either poor planning or dying. Otherwise, you have no excuse, should have checked your supplies before you left the city... [ 01-30-2002: Message edited by: Troodon ]
And actually, Guppy, it may have been boring but it was semi-enjoyable. Dragged you down there and had fun for a bit, then my guildies came down and we had a ton of fun. Generally it was a good experience instead of the hell hole most Monks have.
quote:
We were all impressed when Batutisz wrote:
Happened just recently, Dens. Been a big convo over at monkly biz about it.
I don't hang around monk sites since the Dojo went down. Only reason I even go to monkly biz is for Bodi's guides.
And JooJoo, it's the next SUCCESSFUL forage that gets you either food or drink. When you have the hungry/thirsty message, you can still fail. It just means if you are hungry, you won't forage up a weapon
/mourn Dojo [ 01-30-2002: Message edited by: Densetsu ]
Entropy reigns. Everyone naturally seeks the least difficult way out sooner or later. Iksar Monks are better. They heal faster, they start out swimming better, they have infravision, etc etc. They're better at the job than humans. Whoopee.
Ogres and Trolls are the best warriors. They're predisposed towards it more than humans. Whoopee.
Wood Elves are better rangers and druids, halflings are better druids and rogues. Erudites are better casters, high elves are too, and are better clerics. etc etc ad nauseum.
The arguement won't be laid to rest with experience penalties (too esoteric), the idea that oddball races are okay (in a game based on the idea of being the best you can, a roleplayish reason doesn't often stand up), or roleplay reasons ("Humans are everywhere") because EQ is not inherently an RPG anymore.
Humans should be granted definite bonuses. Learn all skills faster, some sort of holy racial boon, a collection of skill points to dump in any non-combat skill of choice at first level, etc.
oh and the Iksar swimming thing is criminal.
sigpic courtesy of This Guy, original modified by me
quote:
Ja'Deth Issar Ka'bael had this to say about Duck Tales:
The arguement won't be laid to rest with experience penalties (too esoteric), the idea that oddball races are okay (in a game based on the idea of being the best you can, a roleplayish reason doesn't often stand up), or roleplay reasons ("Humans are everywhere") because EQ is not inherently an RPG anymore.Humans should be granted definite bonuses. Learn all skills faster, some sort of holy racial boon, a collection of skill points to dump in any non-combat skill of choice at first level, etc.
oh and the Iksar swimming thing is criminal.
Well, they're in the minority, but some people still do roleplay, kind of... you will still see oddball race/class combo. There's some race/class combos that stand out as a likely rolepalyer, because why else would somebody want to be a human shadowknight?
Swimming isn't that big of a deal... iksar need swimming a lot more than humans anyway, using water to sneak around is essential... besides which, it's only a head start, like the dwarves have with sense heading. The other races can master swimming at level 19, and max it out at 39. Iksars can master it at level 1, and max it out at 19. But eventually anybody can swim as well as an iksar does.
Anyway, your main point, that everyone will always choose the race best at the class they want to play, simply isn't true.. most will, but not all. Human monks will most likely remain in the minority compared to iksar monks, but there will always be at least some human monks around... just like the gnome warriors, human shadowknights, etc... some people don't want to do it the easy way.
Exp penalties aren't esoteric... but they really don't matter. Humans will get 20% more exp per battle, but because they lack regen, they'll have 20% more downtime... so it cancels out.
Each of the races have their own advantages and disadvantages that make them good at certain classes. You don't want to play a human, don't play one... nobody's holding a gun to your head. Don't know why you think humans should get any special bonuses to make people play them... people will play them or not based on their preferences or their estimation of their advantages or disadvantages. Arguing for class balance is one thing, but race balance? You don't like the race, just don't play it.
Whatever... this argument isn't going anywhere, I give up. [ 02-01-2002: Message edited by: Troodon ]
quote:That's only true if you solo from 1-60.
Troodon had this to say about Duck Tales:
Exp penalties aren't esoteric... but they really don't matter. Humans will get 20% more exp per battle, but because they lack regen, they'll have 20% more downtime... so it cancels out.
quote:That's only true if you solo from 1-60.[/QB][/QUOTE]
Black Mage had this to say about dark elf butts:
[QUOTE]Troodon had this to say about Duck Tales:
[qb]Exp penalties aren't esoteric... but they really don't matter. Humans will get 20% more exp per battle, but because they lack regen, they'll have 20% more downtime... so it cancels out.
You're right... because if you have a healer, regen doesn't matter anyway. A human monk in a group is not signficantly worse off than an iksar monk ina group, except at lower levels, the regen iksars have deosn't make a very significant difference, really... 2 extra hp a tick doesn't mean a wholw lot if the mobs hit you for 50 to 80 damage at least...
Regen only makes that much of a difference compared to human monks at lower levels, at reall only while soloing even then.
quote:
Troodon wrote this stupid crap:
Stuff stuff because why else would somebody want to be a human shadowknight?
Stuff stuff stuff
Because he wants to be EVIL. Thats why.
Points at Mort
quote:
Delphi impressed everyone with:
Because he wants to be EVIL. Thats why.
Points at Mort
Hehe... exactly my point. Humans wouldn't put up with the faction hassle of being an evil class of a non-evil race unless they were really dedicated to role-playing an evil character. If they just wanted to play a shadowknight and wanted to take the easy road, they'd go with a dark elf or an iksar(iksar have big faction problems too, but can at least openly walk around all parts of their own city!)
My brother for a short time played a human necromancer, but gave it up because he didn't like the hassle of having to sneak around in his own city (as any human necromancer, shadowknight, or evil cleric knows, you are a bit better off with the Bloodsabres than Dismal Rage, as Qeynos' evil area is a lot more exensive and provides more services, they even have a bank!) Erudite SKs are even more rare than human ones... erudites are smart, but weak, and make better necros than SKs.
But basically my point is that while most people want to take the easy road, some for reasons of roleplaying and/or personal preference will pick a race that is not necessarily the best at their class. They're in the minority, but they do exist.
quote:
And I was all like 'Oh yeah?' and Troodon was all like:
rp l00s3r cr4p
I told a friend earlier:
It takes alot of balls to play a Gnome.
quote:
Densetsu had this to say about Duck Tales:
I don't hang around monk sites since the Dojo went down. Only reason I even go to monkly biz is for Bodi's guides.
Never saw the Dojo, as it was already down before I even started playing EQ. Most monk sites I've seen still argue about humans vs. iksar... a topic that I'm becoming more and more bored with...
But Monky-business does not. They're very good about describing strategies for using the monk skills; this is where I first learned about FD pulling, and it would've taking me a lot longer to succesfully develop that skill had I not seen this site. Quest descriptions, strategy guides, etc... this is in my opinion the best monk-dedicated site that currently exists. There's no information on the site you can't find elsewhere, but here it's all in one place. Its message boards intelligently discuss different aspects of being a monk, without excessive whining.
I think I'm going to end this thread, as far as what I'm going to post, by giving the URL of what I think is the best monk site right now:
http://www.monkly-business.com
quote:
Check out the big brain on D!
I told a friend earlier:It takes alot of balls to play a Gnome.
Oh yes, especially a warrior... I think I've only ever seen one of those... necromancer is a popular choice among gnomes, as is wizard...
Have to get used to the size perspective, the world seems so much bigger as a gnome (unless you're an enchanter, and can raise your perspective). You're also pretty weak, and not too wise(which is why few gnomes are clerics. They are rather intelligent though, make good casters). But you can tinker...
I created a gnome basically because I want to tinker someday (I'm a big tradeskill freak). Tried a gnome cleric once, didn't care for it... going to see if the necro route is a little better. Always wanted to see what it was like to play a necromancer...
I remember seeing on a website once: "A gnome wizard is proof that size doesn't matter."
Good point for me to end on. [ 02-01-2002: Message edited by: Troodon ]
