quote:
Originally posted by Ragabash:
Espionage and assassination is a far better route to go in my opinion. Why waste more lives in a full scale war, when its the loss of life that has us angered in the first place. Be surgical instead of brutal, its FAR more effective.
That has been the policy of the CIA for the past 20 years, and the events of 9/11/01 showed just how effective deep cover operations are in preventing stuff like this.
This is not the Cold War. There are no embassies or offices to bug. There are no diplomats to pay off. There is no central command that can be observed.
Did you know that two months after the first WTC bombing in '93, a small group of terrorists planned to destroy the tunnels leading in and out of Manhattan and use nerve gas to kill the people trapped inside?
Did you know that the only reason ANY intelligence agency knew about the plan at all was because one person involved in the plan decided that it went against the teaching of Islam and became an FBI informant? Intelligence, espionage, and assassination wouldn't have stopped that from taking place. In fact, the FBI literally caught them red-handed, mixing up the explosives they would use to destroy the tunnels.
Did you know that these terrorist organizations are comprised COMPLETELY of family and close, long-time friends that are raised from birth to be terrorists? It is IMPOSSIBLE for a spy to infiltrate the organization undetected. The only, I repeat, the ONLY intel we've ever gathered about their activities is due to weaknesses in the methods of communication they use, and they're getting smarter about that every day.
Did you know that despite the fact that Osama bin Laden has been #1 on the Ten Most Wanted list for years now, our best intelligence STILL can't pinpoint where he is?
Intel and black ops are an important part of this battle, but it's utter foolishness to rely on them to be sufficiently effective in prevention, and sufficiently effective as a deterrant to terrorist behavior.
The lack of a strong, visible, obvious retaliation for what happened to the WTC will only invite more attacks, because it will send the message that you can fuck with the U.S. and we won't do shit to stop it; and that's a door we don't want opened. [ 09-23-2001: Message edited by: Drysart ]
quote:
Originally posted by LeMiere:
'Because it is not as "complex" and "horendous" idea (to me) as it is often made out to be.. I can't see it as that shocking or horrible. It happened.. yes.. it affected me. No, I will not hate anybody for what happened.. ''Don't try to put this in 'perspective' for me. That death count is on a perfectly conceivable scale.. I see nothing inconceivable about it. Guess yer view of an inconceivable scale of murder is that much smaller than mine.'
'Yes, the event was unprovoked. What Afghanistan apparently has against us is our hate toward Muslim people.. and how we do them wrong.'
'They've been goin' out for justice. That's just their form of justice.'
I've been trying to focus my thoughts into some sort of eloquent and productive retort. Unfortunately your ideas and words have angered and offended me so much that I can't get past phrases like "waste of skin".
Our hate towards Muslim people? Please, enlighten me as to what in the fuck are you talking about? No, on second thought, don't. I don't really want to expend the effort of trying to process your "divide-by-zero" retorts.
You've made it clear the depth of your humanity and the calibur of your soul. Have some right wing christian dogma, its like fiber.
quote:
Originally posted by Piper:
I've been trying to focus my thoughts into some sort of eloquent and productive retort. Unfortunately your ideas and words have angered and offended me so much that I can't get past phrases like "waste of skin".Our hate towards Muslim people? Please, enlighten me as to what in the fuck are you talking about? No, on second thought, don't. I don't really want to expend the effort of trying to process your "divide-by-zero" retorts.
You've made it clear the depth of your humanity and the calibur of your soul. Have some right wing christian dogma, its like fiber.
It has been recorder from speeches that the Tal Iban(sp) believe that Americans have a hate towards Muslim.
I'd refer directly to a wonderful li'l political comic in the U of A newspaper that could put my idea into perpective for you, Piper, but I can't find it. Sorry.
Guess people can't have their own opinions or their own feelings.. missed my point completely. I understand where you're coming from, and I have nothing against that. I draw the line when you start accusing people of being horrible for yawning and acting board because their not wholeheartedly into a speech that you fell in love with.
Don't act like this is all in perspective and still say stuff about this being a war of revenge like it's a bad thing if we want some revenge. There are a lot of people who rightfully want to go over there and blow the holy hell out of that area. There are people who did that fake MapQuest screen who are so enraged that they editted Afghanistan out and put in "Lake America" and MEAN it.
I said nothing about Hilary Clinton. I think her rudeness is uncalled for. Then again no-one, not even back when Bill was in office, ever accused Hilary of being warm and cuddly. Still seems crass to do what she did.
As for your allegation that the Afghanis picked a fight with us over how we treat Muslims in our country...uh...excuse me? Are you nuts or just ignorant? We backed them all through their war with the Soviets, Lemmy. When one Arab nation attacked another Arab nation and took away its sovereignty we went in on the behalf of it and its neighbor with their request for aid and solved the problem. How exactly have we been persecuting the Muslim people? By not letting them blow the shit out of Israel? Boo hoo.
Do I think what's happened since to Muslim Americans is fair? Of course not. But think deeper. There are two types of terrorists. You have your Qaddafi's and your Yassir Arafats...the old school of terrorist. They commit terrorism to get attention for their cause. Then you have global gang members like Bin Laden who get pissed off and start committing terrorist acts. Supposedly for attention, but they don't think. Gee...sympathy for Muslims from the United States by launching an unprovoked act of war on us, and when we flex our muscles and threaten to punish them, they force the issue of it being a holy war on us...when Muslims in America are how persecuted? do you hear more about jewish and black descrimination in this country than you do Muslims? or have I just been in a different country the 23 years I've been around?
Hell if Tok doesn't want to go to war, fine. I don't either. But if you live in this country, you accept certain things in the social contract. The Majority Rules. If the vote to put the draft back into effect happens, and you get drafted, it's a shame and you'll be a lousy soldier but that's the deal. The Majority decided. You don't get to pick and choose what laws and rights and responsibilities you're going to be a part of.
sigpic courtesy of This Guy, original modified by me
quote:
Originally posted by Ja'Deth Issar Ka'bael:
Don't get snippy with me, kid. Unless you've seen 5000 dead people all at once, you have no idea what it means. Unless you've stood at ground zero digging through the rubble with a respirator on your face so you don't accidentally inhale concrete and vaporized particles o' people, you've no concept of this. You have an academic idea. You can put it in some perspective "5000 is equal to a fragment of the nearest city's population", etc. I've done that. 5000 people is one out of every eight people I know in my town being dead.Don't act like this is all in perspective and still say stuff about this being a war of revenge like it's a bad thing if we want some revenge. There are a lot of people who rightfully want to go over there and blow the holy hell out of that area. There are people who did that fake MapQuest screen who are so enraged that they editted Afghanistan out and put in "Lake America" and MEAN it.
I said nothing about Hilary Clinton. I think her rudeness is uncalled for. Then again no-one, not even back when Bill was in office, ever accused Hilary of being warm and cuddly. Still seems crass to do what she did.
As for your allegation that the Afghanis picked a fight with us over how we treat Muslims in our country...uh...excuse me? Are you nuts or just ignorant? We backed them all through their war with the Soviets, Lemmy. When one Arab nation attacked another Arab nation and took away its sovereignty we went in on the behalf of it and its neighbor with their request for aid and solved the problem. How exactly have we been persecuting the Muslim people? By not letting them blow the shit out of Israel? Boo hoo.
Do I think what's happened since to Muslim Americans is fair? Of course not. But think deeper. There are two types of terrorists. You have your Qaddafi's and your Yassir Arafats...the old school of terrorist. They commit terrorism to get attention for their cause. Then you have global gang members like Bin Laden who get pissed off and start committing terrorist acts. Supposedly for attention, but they don't think. Gee...sympathy for Muslims from the United States by launching an unprovoked act of war on us, and when we flex our muscles and threaten to punish them, they force the issue of it being a holy war on us...when Muslims in America are how persecuted? do you hear more about jewish and black descrimination in this country than you do Muslims? or have I just been in a different country the 23 years I've been around?
Hell if Tok doesn't want to go to war, fine. I don't either. But if you live in this country, you accept certain things in the social contract. The Majority Rules. If the vote to put the draft back into effect happens, and you get drafted, it's a shame and you'll be a lousy soldier but that's the deal. The Majority decided. You don't get to pick and choose what laws and rights and responsibilities you're going to be a part of.
When I said "American hate towards Arabs/Muslims" I ment how they have been told we treat them here. I saw some sort of goddamned speech about it, okay? Sorry if I didn't phrase it exactly the way you would like me to so that you could understand where I was coming from. I shoulda put that in quotes.. my apologies.
Hence the reason I said that they are making these alligations against our people true.
Maybe I do lack the ability to perceive the amount of damage this has done. You want me to go there, and help out? Pay for my plane ticket and convince them to put me on a squad to remove the rubble. I don't know, Deth.. can you atleast tell me what gives you better perspective about this? Because I don't seem to understand what gives you such a better idea about the events than me, unless you are currently in NY, removing the rubble and dead bodies.
"kid".. yeah.. I'm a kid.. I have about 5-6 years less experience in life than you do. Take that as you may, Deth.. take it as you may.
I never said you were against Hillary's actions.. I didn't say "YOU, Deth, YOU."
I wasn't implying that revenge is necessarily bad. I was saying that it's part of what this war will be fought for. I'll let people take it as bad if they want to.
If the war lasts long enough, I have a chance of participating in it, too. Just a year.
Nothing you are saying is clicking to me as "Wow, that's how it is.. I'm wrong, he's right." Why? Because everything you've said so far has been misunderstandings of what I've said, and elaborations on your points related to your misunderstanding. With the exception of mentioning my personal perception on a death toll. Which just might as well be different than yours, you never know.
Did I see the speech? No,didn't even know there was gonna be one,but i did read the whole thread on this post and all of your different vieuws,so i think i got a pretty clear picture....
I do understand all of you have different vieuws and sentiments,the same happens in my little neck of the world,but that will always be the case,that's what makes democracies such great countries...i think it was best said in the movie "the american president"..."try to hold on to your belief when someone 10 feet from you is shouting exactly that what you've been opposing for the last 10 years"..dunno if igot the quote right,but it was something to that effect,reflecting your 1st amendement....
So yes you will have different vieuws here,but don't flame eachother because you do,i find that only justified if someone is making uninformed/uneducated remarks without thinking.. 
As for all th people who are affraid to be drafted,there's a simple reason not to be affraid,i was in the military,as a draftee,and it costs about 5 to 6 months to get a draftee trained at such a lvl that he/she can do his/her job good enough.....
From what i've seen/heard/read it's not gonna take the USA that long to take actions,so i don't think people will be drafted,simple because there's no sense in doing it..../shrug
As for the ones who are doing the hillarybashing...so,she was being human at the time,in every which way possible,you can't POSSIBLY know what went trough her at the time...reflect on yourself and get a mirror,see if you always have the expression you think you should have..... 
I think you'll be surprised.....
Btw,this does NOT mean i don't uterly disapprove of what happened on 9-11-2001...
quote:
Originally posted by indegloriafeestbeest:
As for the ones who are doing the hillarybashing...so,she was being human at the time,in every which way possible,you can't POSSIBLY know what went trough her at the time...reflect on yourself and get a mirror,see if you always have the expression you think you should have.....
I think you'll be surprised.....
I understand you may feel that way.. but I have my opinion and you have yours. I feel she was in the wrong for doing so and showing much disrespect (saw her talking to whatshisface *name doesnt come to me right now*) several times while the President was talking. Im not saying she knew what expression was on her face.. but to some of us, we feel her actions were rude and disrespectful. *shrug* It is our opinion. I am not bashing you or any one else who feels that such was not the case and I really would appreciate it if we would all just be allowed to have our own opinions without others saying we are wrong for feeling this way. Piper wrote what she felt in her mind and heart. Those who felt the same as she did responded. It in no way means she is trying to make the rest of you believe the same way she is. At least I should hope not.. Same for myself, I am not gonna try and force my opinion on others. I will state it, but I wont force it. Bah.. Im tired, Im hurting.. and I probably shouldnt even be responding to this.. =(
quote:
Originally posted by Ja'Deth Issar Ka'bael:
Hell if Tok doesn't want to go to war, fine. I don't either. But if you live in this country, you accept certain things in the social contract. The Majority Rules. If the vote to put the draft back into effect happens, and you get drafted, it's a shame and you'll be a lousy soldier but that's the deal. The Majority decided. You don't get to pick and choose what laws and rights and responsibilities you're going to be a part of.
This, for the most part, sums up my feelings. I'd rather not see the draft reinstated, but if it came about that I was drafted, I would go, regardless of how I felt.
Cernus seems to want to make me out to be some spoiled, pampered kid who sits on his ass all day posting on a message board. I am no such thing. I'm not exactly rolling in the money, I still live with my parents because I cannot afford to live on my own. But I'm anything but lazy; I work hard at my job to try to get ahead. He knows nothing about me, just as I know absolutely zilch about him.
Am I afraid to be sent off to a place like Afghanistan where there would be a good chance I could be killed? Yup. You got me, the idea of dieing scares me. What scares me even more is the though of not being around to see my son grow up. You can sit around and throw taunts at me all day long, it's not like I care. I'll be the first to admit that this whole process scares me. But you also don't know me, just because I'm scared does not mean I won't do something if it comes down to it. I've gotten over enough obstacles this far in my life, and I can get through more.
But for once, I think this is an argument I'm just going to walk away from. Both Piper and Cernus seem hellbent on flaming anyone who doesn't agree with their beliefs on this issue into the ground, and I just don't care enough to argue over it, anymore. Especially considering how nasty their attacks have started to get. I guess that makes me yellow, or a chicken, or something. But I really don't have enough respect for either of them at this point to continue the debate, so I won't. I'd like to see everyone else drop the situation as well.
-Tok
quote:
Originally posted by Toktuk:
This, for the most part, sums up my feelings. I'd rather not see the draft reinstated, but if it came about that I was drafted, I would go, regardless of how I felt.Cernus seems to want to make me out to be some spoiled, pampered kid who sits on his ass all day posting on a message board. I am no such thing. I'm not exactly rolling in the money, I still live with my parents because I cannot afford to live on my own. But I'm anything but lazy; I work hard at my job to try to get ahead. He knows nothing about me, just as I know absolutely zilch about him.
Am I afraid to be sent off to a place like Afghanistan where there would be a good chance I could be killed? Yup. You got me, the idea of dieing scares me. What scares me even more is the though of not being around to see my son grow up. You can sit around and throw taunts at me all day long, it's not like I care. I'll be the first to admit that this whole process scares me. But you also don't know me, just because I'm scared does not mean I won't do something if it comes down to it. I've gotten over enough obstacles this far in my life, and I can get through more.
But for once, I think this is an argument I'm just going to walk away from. Both Piper and Cernus seem hellbent on flaming anyone who doesn't agree with their beliefs on this issue into the ground, and I just don't care enough to argue over it, anymore. Especially considering how nasty their attacks have started to get. I guess that makes me yellow, or a chicken, or something. But I really don't have enough respect for either of them at this point to continue the debate, so I won't. I'd like to see everyone else drop the situation as well.
-Tok
...With how you put that, I feel compelled to follow suit. Sorry if I may have accidently put words in yer mouth at all, Tok.
quote:
Originally posted by LeMiere:
...With how you put that, I feel compelled to follow suit. Sorry if I may have accidently put words in yer mouth at all, Tok.
I have a big mouth, there's plenty of room for other's words, as well as mine.
-Tok
For the record, Lem, no I haven't been to NYC. My point was that none of us can say we understand the carnage until we do. All we can do is have respect for the scale. You seemed to be putting it off as 5000 people being gone is small potatoes.
sigpic courtesy of This Guy, original modified by me
quote:
Originally posted by Woody:
I hate it when you guys try to be political.Shut up and just be gamers.
Woody = teh funney.
