What is a decent enchant to get placed on either one of these weapons? My character is a level 38 Draenei Pally, so he cant even use Mograine's Might yet. I'm not even sure which one I'm going to use over the other anyways. Any recommendations? Goma fucked around with this message on 02-20-2007 at 01:39 PM.
Get the best +weapon damage you can afford.
Fire and Ice look pretty, but are kinda crap overall. You could go for one of the big +Str enchants or +Agility if you have cash to blow (god, Primal Air is selling for 50+ right now on my server).
I'm still waiting to replace my +15 Agi enchants with Mongoose.
Do the math; fiery has a 10% chance to proc for 40 damage. Over 100 strikes you'll see 400 extra damage from fiery, but you'll see 900 extra damage from superior impact.
Even if you figure in the crit rate for fiery, that's still weak as hell.
As far as the new AP enchants go... well, I honestly have not done the math on them. I'm not a melee, I can't really be bothered 
Fiery can also crit on it's own, and trigger Vengenance.
If you were Protection spec, I'd also strongly suggest going with a Fiery enchantment, since Fiery can also proc off of Seal of Righteousness.
Or if you have the cash and a high level friend, you might also be able to get a Savagery enchant, which is +70 AP, which should be a nice bonus to damage as well.
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Maradon! obviously shouldn't have said:
Do the math; fiery has a 10% chance to proc for 40 damage. Over 100 strikes you'll see 400 extra damage from fiery, but you'll see 900 extra damage from superior impact.
Not quite, Impact is just a bonus to weapon damage. It gets mitigated by enemy armor, whereas Fiery will tend to do full damage every time (unless resisted) to any enemy that doesn't have high fire resist.
Falaanla Marr fucked around with this message on 02-20-2007 at 02:13 PM.
FAL IS NO FUN 
Edit: Anyway, attack power apparently adds 1 DPS per 14 points of attack power, so Savagery is +5 DPS. So it'd change Mograine's Might's average hit to 122.92 damage from 109. Willias fucked around with this message on 02-20-2007 at 02:17 PM.
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Over the mountain, in between the ups and downs, I ran into Willias who doth quote:
Not quite, Impact is just a bonus to weapon damage. It gets mitigated by enemy armor, whereas Fiery will tend to do full damage every time (unless resisted) to any enemy that doesn't have high fire resist.
Mitigated or not you're still getting the bonus. Even if your swing is only increased by 7 of the 9 damage it's still the same % more than you would have gotten without the talent, and it's still more than twice as much as you'd get from fiery even if you figure in that rare fiery crit.
Also, every time your weapon crits, you get twice the enchant bonus.
Fiery is for noobs who are bad at math.
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This one time, at Maradon! camp:
Mitigated or not you're still getting the bonus. Even if your swing is only increased by 7 of the 9 damage it's still the same % more than you would have gotten without the talent, and it's still more than twice as much as you'd get from fiery even if you figure in that rare fiery crit.Also, every time your weapon crits, you get twice the enchant bonus.
Fiery is for noobs who are bad at math.
Rare fiery crit.
Have you played a character that has used Fiery enchant?
I'm not going to disagree that for pure flat DPS, namely for rogues and warriors, +damage will be better, but for shamans and paladins, fiery is still a good choice.
Fiery can proc on Stormstrike and Windfury procs for shaman. Fiery can also proc off of Seal of Command and Righteousness. Fiery procs, if a crit happens, will apparently trigger Flurry for Enhancement shamans, and will definitely trigger Vengeance on Retribution paladins.
This is kinda like arguing why a shaman should pick Frostbrand or Windfury over Flametongue or Rockbiter. Consistency doesn't always guarantee better.
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Greenlit had this to say about Robocop:
Fiery on a level 1 dagger is still the best twink enchant.
I have a level 6 Draenei Paladin in Eversong Woods with Fiery on its weapon.
I one-shot level 10 Blood Elves. It's pretty awesome.
There is never a case where fiery will do more damage than +7 damage to say nothing of +9, regardless of the weapon's speed.
The odd pally/shaman buff interaction aside, you cannot change the fact that 7x100 is more than 40x10. Maradon! fucked around with this message on 02-20-2007 at 04:17 PM.
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Maradon! thought about the meaning of life:
I do have a 60 warrior you know. Fiery rarely crits. Just like I've had people believe that fiery has a 25% crit rate, if you believe fiery crits often it's only because you notice it more when it does. Worse still, fiery's crit rate doesn't scale with gear, but +dmg crits every time your weapon crits.There is never a case where fiery will do more damage than +7 damage to say nothing of +9, regardless of the weapon's speed.
The odd pally/shaman buff interaction aside, you cannot change the fact that 7x100 is more than 40x10.
Are you saying you would take +9 damage over Crusader as a 60 warrior?
If you don't count instant attacks or potentially Flurry when figuring the procrate, Crusader averages out to about a flat 50 AP enchant. On a 3.4 speed weapon (Using the normalized speed for the sake of ease), that's 12.14 damage per swing averaged out over time. When you figure in instant attacks, that number is actually much higher. Taeldian fucked around with this message on 02-20-2007 at 04:31 PM.
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x--TaeldianO-('-'Q) :
Are you saying you would take +9 damage over Crusader as a 60 warrior?
No, I'm saying I'd take +9 damage over fiery.
Crusader heals you AND increases your damage for 15 seconds. While I don't think Crusader will increase your dps as much as +9 (though it might with the AP changes), I'd say the healing makes up for it. Maradon! fucked around with this message on 02-20-2007 at 04:32 PM.
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Maradon! probably says this to all the girls:
No, I'm saying I'd take +9 damage over fiery.Crusader heals you AND increases your damage for 15 seconds. While I don't think Crusader will increase your dps as much as +9 (though it might with the AP changes), I'd say the healing makes up for it.
The healing is not why you get Crusader. The damage is why you get Crusader.
see edit to my last post Taeldian fucked around with this message on 02-20-2007 at 04:37 PM.
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Peanut butter ass Shaq Taeldian booooze lime pole over bench lick:
The healing is not why you get Crusader. The damage is why you get Crusader.see edit to my last post
Yeah ok, like I said though I'm not talking about crusader. When I included it in my original post, I was thinking of the proc on the truesilver champion for some reason
Getting fiery when you can afford +7 or 9 is what I am calling stupid.
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Maradon! had this to say about Cuba:
I do have a 60 warrior you know. Fiery rarely crits. Just like I've had people believe that fiery has a 25% crit rate, if you believe fiery crits often it's only because you notice it more when it does. Worse still, fiery's crit rate doesn't scale with gear, but +dmg crits every time your weapon crits.
I'm pretty sure fiery's crit rate is based off of your spell crit rate, which is why you wouldn't get it to crit often on a warrior.
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x--WilliasO-('-'Q) :
I'm pretty sure fiery's crit rate is based off of your spell crit rate, which is why you wouldn't get it to crit often on a warrior.
Fiery could have a 100% crit rate and still be worse than +9
I'm a lock and my spell crit rate is only 20%... that means that fiery would crit on 2 out of every 100 swings Maradon! fucked around with this message on 02-20-2007 at 05:52 PM.
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Maradon! wrote this then went back to looking for porn:
Fiery could have a 100% crit rate and still be worse than +9I'm a lock and my spell crit rate is only 20%... that means that fiery would crit on 2 out of every 100 swings
If Fiery had a 100% crit rate, with the benefit of triggering Vengeance and Flurry, it could be considered overpowered, as 10% proc rate will actually be going off pretty often.
And having the extra free chance at critting, no matter how small, is better than not having that chance to crit.
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Peanut butter ass Shaq Willias booooze lime pole over bench lick:
If Fiery had a 100% crit rate, with the benefit of triggering Vengeance and Flurry, it could be considered overpowered, as 10% proc rate will actually be going off pretty often.And having the extra free chance at critting, no matter how small, is better than not having that chance to crit.
Again though, you're relying on class buff or talent interaction and not numbers. To me it seems like a bug that it even works that way to begin with.
Furthermore, to that end, peppering your melee damage with small hits that still count as a crit can also work against you due to crit-activated talents like enrage. I honestly don't know if fiery will set off enrage or not, but if it triggers YOUR crit-activated talents but not your target's, I'd put the odds of it being nerfed at 100%
Fiery is still out of the question for rogues and warriors concerned about dealing damage. Maradon! fucked around with this message on 02-20-2007 at 06:17 PM.
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Taeldian obviously shouldn't have said:
The healing is not why you get Crusader. The damage is why you get Crusader.see edit to my last post
Um. For a while I did Dual Crusader + Hero trinket... And I did it purely for the healing effects. While farming crap it cut my "downtime" for eating quite a bit. The boost in DPS was just kinda bonus as far as I was concerned.
For general Raid/PVE I went with +15 Agi enchants as the bonus Crit/Dodge/Constant AP boost > Crusader Heal/DPS
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Random Insanity Generator had this to say about Matthew Broderick:
Um. For a while I did Dual Crusader + Hero trinket... And I did it purely for the healing effects. While farming crap it cut my "downtime" for eating quite a bit. The boost in DPS was just kinda bonus as far as I was concerned.For general Raid/PVE I went with +15 Agi enchants as the bonus Crit/Dodge/Constant AP boost > Crusader Heal/DPS
If you're stacking healing stuff for farming, that's one thing. Raid DPS and PvP, however, are completely different. Also, rogues are a bit different on what they want for enchants.
Bloodthirst alone is somewhere around 5-10x more healing than dual crusader, and Bloodthirst barely heals at all. Warriors get 0 AP from agility, and 25 str is significantly better than any other enchant out there.
By the way, for a combat rogue Crusader MH/15 Agi OH was the way to go. Taeldian fucked around with this message on 02-20-2007 at 08:20 PM.
Of course if you can afford it, there are better things as mentioned. Annarchae fucked around with this message on 02-21-2007 at 08:00 AM.
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Taeldian's fortune cookie read:
If you're stacking healing stuff for farming, that's one thing. Raid DPS and PvP, however, are completely different. Also, rogues are a bit different on what they want for enchants.Bloodthirst alone is somewhere around 5-10x more healing than dual crusader, and Bloodthirst barely heals at all. Warriors get 0 AP from agility, and 25 str is significantly better than any other enchant out there.
By the way, for a combat rogue Crusader MH/15 Agi OH was the way to go.
Yeah, people think Crusader MH / Agi OH is the way to go, but I've found double Agi to be more effective overall. Everyone seems to lust after Burst DPS and it's easier to work with constant DPS, especially in "DPS Control" fights.
Edit: stupid url wont work on the forum... Malkav fucked around with this message on 02-21-2007 at 01:24 PM.
code:http://www.wowwiki.com/Formulasrocs_per_minute
Edit: stupid url wont work on the forum...[/qb]<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
Or not...how odd. Damnati fucked around with this message on 02-21-2007 at 01:50 PM.
Edit: maybe this way will work...
It is by caffeine alone I set my mind in motion. It is by the beans of Java the thoughts aquire speed, the teeth acquire stains, the stains become a warning. It is by caffeine alone I set my mind in motion.
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How.... Maradon!.... uughhhhhh:
The PPM theory is based entirely on hearsay, and all my personal experience runs contrary.
Which experiences, specifically?
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Over the mountain, in between the ups and downs, I ran into Taeldian who doth quote:
Which experiences, specifically?
Months of weilding the rockpounder versus months of weilding the needler.
Think about it
The formula has no way of knowing if you're going to continue fighting for the rest of the minute. If PPM is correct, then after several minutes of not swinging your weapon, your first swing would have to have a noticibly higher chance to proc in order to maintain any designated non-zero PPM. In fact, you'd have to have a whole string of procs.
This just isn't the case.
It's just not reasonable to average procs over time when you could average them per swing. It WOULD make sense for the weapon's speed to be factored in to the proc rate, but most people arrive at 10% on SLOW weapons, less on fast ones.
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And the Maradon! comes in the niiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiigh-
Months of weilding the rockpounder versus months of weilding the needler.Think about it
The formula has no way of knowing if you're going to continue fighting for the rest of the minute. If PPM is correct, then after several minutes of not swinging your weapon, your first swing would have to have a noticibly higher chance to proc in order to maintain any designated non-zero PPM. In fact, you'd have to have a whole string of procs.
This just isn't the case.
PPM is a statistical average. It's another way of stating a percent chance on hit that is based on weapon speed. The theory is that certain weapon enchants have a set PPM rate and consequently the percent chance to proc on each hit will vary with the speed of the weapon it enchants.
It doesn't actually measure the amount of procs you've had versus the amount of time you've been fighting. The proc percentage is based on the static weapon speed and PPM rating alone. This means if you use a lot of instant attacks or have haste buffs you'll probably beat the PPM rating, and if you're slowed a lot you'll probably come in under it.
Edit: Say you're using fiery, which wowiki says has a PPM rate of 6, and you're using The Nicker (speed 4.0). You ought to have a 40% chance of proccing fiery on any given hit, since 40% chance times 15 swings in a minute comes out to 6 procs per minute on average. By the same note, a speed 3.0 weapon would have a 30% chance to proc, and so on.
I don't know if PPM has been verified by experiments or not, though. Tegadil fucked around with this message on 02-21-2007 at 07:16 PM.
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Maradon!'s account was hax0red to write:
Months of weilding the rockpounder versus months of weilding the needler.Think about it
The formula has no way of knowing if you're going to continue fighting for the rest of the minute. If PPM is correct, then after several minutes of not swinging your weapon, your first swing would have to have a noticibly higher chance to proc in order to maintain any designated non-zero PPM. In fact, you'd have to have a whole string of procs.
This just isn't the case.
It's just not reasonable to average procs over time when you could average them per swing. It WOULD make sense for the weapon's speed to be factored in to the proc rate, but most people arrive at 10% on SLOW weapons, less on fast ones.
PPM just determines the chance to proc. Crusader is a 1 PPM proc, so if you put it on a 3.5 speed weapon that swings 17 times per minute, you'll have a 1 in 17 chance to proc (about 6%). The PPM rate does not account for instant attacks, so when you add in a lot of instants such as Sinister Strike, Mortal Strike, Hamstring, etc., you'll actually be doing more than 1 Proc Per Minute. The procrate does not adjust for these instants attacks, nor does it adjust for attack speed modifiers such as Slice and Dice or Flurry. Thus, slower weapons will actually proc significantly more often over time than faster ones because of the instant attacks.
It has been tested. It's easily observable by enchanting a Julie's Dagger vs. a big slow 2-hander if you measure the procrate over time. Taeldian fucked around with this message on 02-21-2007 at 07:54 PM.
