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Kalgan posted
A couple quick corrections...- Blood Frenzy is actually still a debuff on the target that now adds 2%/4% to melee damage done to the target (the current tooltip in the talent calculator makes it sound like it only increses your damage).
- Endless Rage now increases rage generated when you deal damage by 25% (but does not increase rage generated by taking damage).
Delidgamond fucked around with this message on 10-16-2006 at 02:47 PM.
This coupled with the STA scaling means Warriors are going to be just as sweet. 
And someone over and Blizzard needs to be hit with a Bus Shock.
Seriously, check this:
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10/16/2006 changes for Shaman:-Enhancement:
Stormstrike: Now has a 10 second cooldown and costs 277 mana at level 70.
I mean, nice change for us Enh shammies, but this is pretty disappointing.
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Oh Blackened. Oh Blackened! Oh Blackened!!;
Yeah, I just saw these changes. Lots of awesome stuff for Warriors. We actually have 41 talent point skills that are worth it, now.This coupled with the STA scaling means Warriors are going to be just as sweet.
It's too bad I'm giving up my warrior for a Paladin when BC comes out.
I mean, why being a dps warrior when a rogue is just going to do 20-30% more damage than you and have the ability to wipe their aggro?
The only way to play a warrior when BC comes out is to be a super tank or be utility arms with Imp Thunderclap and Blood Frenzy.
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(NEW) Stance Mastery - You retain up to 10 of your rage points when you change stances.
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Delidgamond obviously shouldn't have said:
It's too bad I'm giving up my warrior for a Paladin when BC comes out.I mean, why being a dps warrior when a rogue is just going to do 20-30% more damage than you and have the ability to wipe their aggro?
The only way to play a warrior when BC comes out is to be a super tank or be utility arms with Imp Thunderclap and Blood Frenzy.
Yeah, damn those rogues! With thier shitty armor, high dodge rate, ability to stealth, and backstab shit like crazy, completely unlike a warrior who can actually take a hit!
Damn them to hell!
Seriously though, warriors will still do decent damage if they want to DPS. They have the upside of being able to take hits along with doing decent damage though, unlike any of the normal damage classes of the game.
And trust me, as a enh shaman, I'll want plenty of you warrior types around because apparently, windfury = Tauntmeister 5000.
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Willias thought about the meaning of life:
Yeah, damn those rogues! With thier shitty armor, high dodge rate, ability to stealth, and backstab shit like crazy, completely unlike a warrior who can actually take a hit!Damn them to hell!
Seriously though, warriors will still do decent damage if they want to DPS. They have the upside of being able to take hits along with doing decent damage though, unlike any of the normal damage classes of the game.And trust me, as a enh shaman, I'll want plenty of you warrior types around because apparently, windfury = Tauntmeister 5000.
Warriors in fury gear cannot take hits.
In fact, they're arguably squishier than rogues.
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Oh Taeldian. Oh Taeldian! Oh Taeldian!!;
Warriors in fury gear cannot take hits.In fact, they're arguably squishier than rogues.
They are. I here the CTRA aggro sound and I know I'm dead or if I somehow stay alive by the tank getting back aggro, I can't attack anymore since I'll just steal it back.
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I suppose the same could be said of all Taeldians...
In fact, they're arguably squishier than rogues.
Hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha.
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Taeldian obviously shouldn't have said:
Warriors in fury gear cannot take hits.In fact, they're arguably squishier than rogues.
Ahaahahahaahahahahahahaha
Which won't exist in BC, right?
So, someone explain to me how rogues aren't as squishy as fury warriors? I understand that a rogue has an easier time evading aggro, but I don't see how a rogue would last any longer than a fury warrior if he/she is stuck with aggro like a fury warrior would be.
So in Burning Crusade, where the game's content is limited to 25-mans, where mobs obviously aren't going to be able to 1-2 shot people who aren't the main tank, I don't see how a fury warrior is MORE squishy than a rogue would be.
In the Burning Crusade. * swoon *
I bet I could spend five minutes on the general forums and find some warrior complaining thattheir new BC talents aren't nearly enough, a joke, or proof that Blizzard hates the class.
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A sleep deprived Willias stammered:
Okay, we're talking about 40 man raids here, right?Which won't exist in BC, right?
So, someone explain to me how rogues aren't as squishy as fury warriors? I understand that a rogue has an easier time evading aggro, but I don't see how a rogue would last any longer than a fury warrior if he/she is stuck with aggro like a fury warrior would be.
So in Burning Crusade, where the game's content is limited to 25-mans, where mobs obviously aren't going to be able to 1-2 shot people who aren't the main tank, I don't see how a fury warrior is MORE squishy than a rogue would be.
In Fury gear, warriors generally sacrifice a LOT of health for extra Hit/Crit/AP. If a warrior goes all out on damage, he's going to be in the low 4k health range. A warrior in Berserker Stance also takes 10% more damage. In my DPS gear, I'm sitting at about 47% mitigation, so in zerker stance that's 37%. Still more than a rogue.
The difference comes in when you add avoidance. Rogues have significantly more avoidance than a warrior in fury gear does.
The rogue has the ability to use evasion just like a warrior has the ability to put on a sword/shield and go defensive. Evasion > sword/shield in fury gear.
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Paladins will strike faces.In the Burning Crusade. * swoon *
I bet I could spend five minutes on the general forums and find some warrior complaining thattheir new BC talents aren't nearly enough, a joke, or proof that Blizzard hates the class.
Okay, and how is that different from any other class? Willias fucked around with this message on 10-16-2006 at 04:24 PM.
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Taeldian's unholy Backstreet Boys obsession manifested in:
In Fury gear, warriors generally sacrifice a LOT of health for extra Hit/Crit/AP. If a warrior goes all out on damage, he's going to be in the low 4k health range. A warrior in Berserker Stance also takes 10% more damage. In my DPS gear, I'm sitting at about 47% mitigation, so in zerker stance that's 37%. Still more than a rogue.The difference comes in when you add avoidance. Rogues have significantly more avoidance than a warrior in fury gear does.
The rogue has the ability to use evasion just like a warrior has the ability to put on a sword/shield and go defensive. Evasion > sword/shield in fury gear.
So hey, what about the fact that almost every piece of Burning Crusade gear has assloads of STA on it?
HP isn't an issue in BC.
I agree about Evasion, except it's spotty. It isn't a magical "can't touch this" button. If the rogue does happen to get hit, even with Evasion up, he's going to feel more pain than a warrior would in Berserker stance.
The big problem is that warriors can't eliminate aggro like a rogue can. A rogue can reliably gain aggro, and then quickly lose it with Vanish. That's where a rogue has more survivability imo, while a fury warrior has to get down on his knees and pray that a couple of healers manage to get some really well-timed heals so that the MT can get taunt back.
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Willias had this to say about Matthew Broderick:
I agree about Evasion, except it's spotty. It isn't a magical "can't touch this" button. If the rogue does happen to get hit, even with Evasion up, he's going to feel more pain than a warrior would in Berserker stance.
That's why it's arguable 
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Greenlit's account was hax0red to write:
Ahaahahahaahahahahahahaha
What am I missing?
Any time you see an "awesome" pvp video where some idiot crits for a stupid amount of damage, odds are that the fight was rigged with a willing warrior who racked up all the possible % multipliers to damage received.
A warrior in defensive stance with a shield will always, always, always, always get that mitigation. A rogue popping Evasion can still be killed nearly instantly by the luck of the dice.
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Densetsu stopped staring at Deedlit long enough to write:
I find it funny how you compare flat-rate stance bonuses to 5-minute cooldowns with a short duration relying on random number generators. Funny. Laughable. Hahahaha. Etc.A warrior in defensive stance with a shield will always, always, always, always get that mitigation. A rogue popping Evasion can still be killed nearly instantly by the luck of the dice.
Couple things about this:
First, rogues have a flat avoidance before evasion that is much, much higher than a fury-geared warrior's avoidance.
If you're pulling aggro more than once every 5 minutes, something is wrong (This applies to both rogues and fury warriors).
Evasion > Fury-geared warrior with a shield on. If I put on a shield and go defensive stance to start spamming shield block, I still drop way too fast for healers to keep me up unless the content is trivial. That is if they decide to heal me at all - after all, I screwed up, pulled aggro and deserve to die.
I simply can not stay alive with those kinds of stats.
Oh god.
Oh god.
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Densetsu had this to say about Robocop:
Avoidance is not flat-rate. Nothing that works only a % of the time is flat-rate. Hell, I bet your shield alone gives as much mitigation, if not more, than I have with all of my gear. Add in the extra 10% mitigation for defensive and there is no way that a 15sec ability with a 5 minute cooldown can match that. That's absurd. You're absurd.
If you're pulling aggro more than once every 5 minutes, something is wrong (This applies to both rogues and fury warriors).
The 5 minute cooldown on evasion really should not affect you. Evasion > Fury+Shield.
Neither of us is going to tank for any amount of time. We both have a very high chance of just getting instakilled on the spot when we pull aggro. My option is to strap on a shield, try to mitigate those 2k crits as much as possible and pray for heals/the tank to taunt it back. Your option is to hit evasion and pray you avoid eveything until the tank gets it back.
Our survivability when we pull aggro is comparable.
EDIT: What is your dodge/parry at? Taeldian fucked around with this message on 10-16-2006 at 06:00 PM.
-"Bad Warrior no popping all your damage increasing abilities at once 5 seconds into a fight!"
I hated being the MT with them around, they screwed up aggro generation so badly even if they did go down in 1 hit.
It follows that out of the dps classes, the most survivable when played very well tend to be rogues and hunters, since they have by far the most tools to avoid ever getting aggro.
Note that I'm speaking purely from a raiding perspective (with a very healthy dose of personal opinion) and not taking into account the changes in BC.
However, I think it would be pretty stupid of Blizzard to not take into account all the STA on gear now when designing encounters in BC. I find it highly unlikely that non-tanks will fare any better on high end encounters than they do now. Zaeron fucked around with this message on 10-16-2006 at 06:54 PM.
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Tegadil had this to say about Cuba:
There's a rogue in my guild who claims he has dodge in the high 90s when he pops evasion. Assuming he's even remotely close, that's a hell of a lot better than a fury warrior throwing on a shield and using d stance.
Too bad the defensive skills (block, parry, and dodge) cap at 60% for actual usefulness. So a Rogue with say, 50% dodge and 20% parry won't be getting use out of 10% of those. ;D
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Last week, Batty quit the band:
Too bad the defensive skills (block, parry, and dodge) cap at 60% for actual usefulness. So a Rogue with say, 50% dodge and 20% parry won't be getting use out of 10% of those. ;D
Source? I seem to recall seeing a blue post some time back dispelling the 60% avoidance cap myth.
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Tegadil Model 2000 was programmed to say:
Source? I seem to recall seeing a blue post some time back dispelling the 60% avoidance cap myth.
If it was said by a blue it's true, then I'm wrong for once~ But that's what I've heard and read forever and I'm too lazy to check. So have fun!
Edit: Blue post archive. But to be fair, it is Tseric Tegadil fucked around with this message on 10-16-2006 at 08:00 PM.
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Everyone wondered WTF when Tegadil wrote:
I did a real quick search, and this link (scroll down to avoidance cap) has a quote from a blue (although the forum link no longer works) and a few anecdotal tests showing people going over the cap.Edit: Blue post archive. But to be fair, it is Tseric
I'd believe the actual testing before anything Tseric says. He could say the sky is blue and I'd have to check.
Also, just as a counter...Rogues can hit 99% dodge rather easily with ghostly strikes and evasion up. 
Rogue pulls aggro without evasion up, might survive 1, maybe two hits if they can dodge, then dies awesomely.
I pull aggro, or any other fury warrior pulls aggro on a boss - I'm lucky if I don't get one shotted.
Rogues with evasion are better than warriors at mitigating damage, and even without can dodge/parry more than fury warriors since no dps gear has any useful agi/dodge/defense on it. I don't even bother trying to put on a shield if I pull aggro anymore. If it's in MC or on ony, I'll just dps tank the boss dual wielding, if it's in naxx or in BWL, I'm fucked before the healers will have a chance to respond.
In Zul'Gurub and AQ20, which dies faster, rogues or fury warriors?
