Maybe they should wait ten years before they start trying to convert the Iraqi people.

heh.

You can not convert someone who worships the same god you do.

They are going to do more damage to us than anyoen else could.

Anyway, yes, that is exactly the stupidity I would expect from those particular groups. A nice rule of thumb, shoot missionaries on site.

[ 04-13-2003: Message edited by: Dr. Pvednes, PhD ]

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Dr. Pvednes, PhD had this to say about (_|_):
"Hey christians, we have an updated version! come look!"

Anyway, yes, that is exactly the stupidity I would expect from those particular groups. A nice rule of thumb, shoot missionaries on site.

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I take umbrage at this sort of attitude. You sound worse than the people you are trying to condemn. "OMG, these people's opinions differ from mine, they are obviously unenlightened ignorant barabarians!"

And Azizza, hopefully as missionaries they will have recieved at least SOME education about the culture and religion of those they are attempting to convert. Moreover, they should be attempting to help in terms of physical labor. If the locals ask, thats fine, tell them all bout it, but don't try and go pushing it on them. They do that, and they'll get what they deserve.

Moreover, though Catholics and Protestants worship the same God, there are a good number of Protestants converted to Catholicism every year. Obviously, if conversion can occur between two similar belief systems like this, it can certainly occur with Islam. Worshipping the same God does not mean you worship Him in the same way.

The deciding factor here is whether the missionaries have been sufficiently educated not only in their own religion, but in that of the people they are trying to convert. Is ALSO essential that they have a great deal of tact and discretion. So nyah.

Which is a bad thing, no matter how you slice it.

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Star Collective spewed forth this undeniable truth:

Moreover, though Catholics and Protestants worship the same God, there are a good number of Protestants converted to Catholicism every year. Obviously, if conversion can occur between two similar belief systems like this, it can certainly occur with Islam. Worshipping the same God does not mean you worship Him in the same way.

p

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Perhaps I should clarify here. The West has many misconceptions about Islam. Most people know little to nothing about it. Many think that Allah is a pagan god of some sort.

I don't have much faith in missionaries. While not all are bad, generaly the people you see pushing this are very close minded. The type that do give Christians a bad name.

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We were all impressed when Karnaj wrote:
Even with tact and discretion, if you try talking to fundamentalist ANYONE about alternate possibilities, you're at best just gonna hit a wall. At worst, they decide that you're an affront to their beliefs and they whack you.

Which is a bad thing, no matter how you slice it.

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Which is why you don't run over and be all like "OMG, convert pagan sinners!"
You have to wait for them to ask. Let it be their curiousity that brings it about. They WILL ask too. Intelligence and curiousity are intertwined, and I don't doubt that there are at least a few intelligent people over there. Don't be all like "This is how it is, and I'm right and you are wrong." Make sure that they know that they can come to you and you are willing to discuss things in a congenial, civilized manner and they will come.

Besides, even if they don't, you've still done a good Christian thing in helping them out. Thats why missionaries are supposed to help out physically, not just sit around talking. Provide a good example. Get some work done. The whole thing is strung together. People don't respect empty words, but they do respect actions. Thats why you have nuns and Christian organizations running hospitals and shelters and charities.

Before you condemn missionaries, take a look at the incredible works they have accomplished. While not all the things missionaries have done have been good, they have certainly had powerful effects.

On the positive side, the article says the aid packages being prepared will not contain any literature, just basic life necessities, so that's good. Sticking Bibles in with food would probably send a rather sour message to its recipients.

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I don't have much faith in missionaries. While not all are bad, generaly the people you see pushing this are very close minded. The type that do give Christians a bad name.

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Especially those Apostles. Don't forget that guy named Paul either! Worst of the the lot.

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This insanity brought to you by Star Collective:
I take umbrage at this sort of attitude. You sound worse than the people you are trying to condemn. "OMG, these people's opinions differ from mine, they are obviously unenlightened ignorant barabarians!"

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I apologise if that's how I was coming across as. I was not refering to Christians in general, I was refering to those who attempt to force their's on others, such as that particular type of fundamentalist. The ones who DO give Christianity a bad name. Those sort are the ones who would appear to be sending their missionaries, and I wish them bad luck. I do not try to force my view down people's throats, and I would like the same in return thank you.

'Iraq is about to be invaded by thousands of U.S. evangelical missionaries who say they are bent on a "spiritual warfare" campaign to convert the country's Muslims to Christianity.' does not sound particularily open minded to me. If it were the aid and a small discussion, that's perfectly fine, but it sounds a bit more like the ones who pester people.

[ 04-17-2003: Message edited by: Dr. Pvednes, PhD ]

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Karnaj had this to say about Optimus Prime:
On the positive side, the article says the aid packages being prepared will not contain any literature, just basic life necessities, so that's good. Sticking Bibles in with food would probably send a rather sour message to its recipients.

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Or a realy good one for the starveing children, papers edible, they probpaly cnat read english

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How.... Tarquinn.... uughhhhhh:

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Heh heh heh. Yep, that's about how it will look, too.

Up untill the first stoning or whatever.

They differ from normal parishioners in that they are actively going out to convert people. If the goal is to do it by example, then they shouldn't be any different from people who go to Church every Sunday. It's like having a car dealer land in your back yard and start telling you (or showing you) how much better your life would be with a car that he's pushing.

The goal should be to live in peace with one another, not establish a spiritual imperialist policy of "Make the world Christian".

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Ja'Deth Issar Ka'bael had this to say about Punky Brewster:
It's like having a car dealer land in your back yard and start telling you (or showing you) how much better your life would be with a car that he's pushing.

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Let's go a little further with this analogy then.

The car dealer in this case is giving you food, helping to rebuild, and giving advice that refers to things besides the car he's trying to sell you.. He's trying to make your life easier. He is also firmly convinced that if you don't take this car, then you are going to spend an eternity in hell. The car in this case is also FREE.

The car he's selling comes with a price. It's your soul. The car you have currently isn't broken. Oh sure, some whackos trick it out and use it to run over people, but it is not, in fact, broken, outdated, or otherwise non-functional.

You don't, in fact, need a new car.

This guy is making it a condition that, in addition to giving you the things you need to survive (food, water, etc), you have to put up with him trying to sell you a car you don't need, and don't want (otherwise he wouldn't have had to come to you to sell you a car; you'd have found a way to get the car already). It's a car you've heard of (hard to miss Christianity in the world, so don't even argue that point) but it's not the one you grew up with, it's not the one you have faith in, and it's not the one you chose for yourself (and if you argue that they didn't have a choice, then let me remind you how anal catholics are about indoctrinating the young and keeping them indoctrinated).

Now...let me get away from the analogy for a moment. It's okay to have a faith. It's okay to go over and offer aid in the spirit of universal love as part of your faith. That is, after all, what I said earlier. People should focus on doing that sort of thing for one another. On the other hand, there is a line between "My religion tells me to help everyone, so here's some food" and "My religion tells me to help everyone, so here's some food, and here's me expounding on why your religion is WRONG and why you should join my religion."

In other words, missionaries seem too much like those zombieish cultists droning "Join us...join us..." to me.

Do good works because they're good, not because you're trying to con people into your religion. And don't hide behind the "We want to save everyone" if you're not willing to be converted yourself. Your faith in a religion is no superior to anyone else's. If one religion was self-evidently superior to all others, you wouldn't need missionaries going out pushing it on people who get by happily enough with what they've got.

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When the babel fish was in place, it was apparent Ja'Deth Issar Ka'bael said:
SNIP

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This has restored my love for the dethessay!

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Ja'Deth Issar Ka'bael got all f'ed up on Angel Dust and wrote:
Since we want to promote well-being and universal love to the Iraqi people, we're sending you over as goodwill ambassador, Parce. Pack your bags, you've got thousands of Iraqis who need a hug.

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*loads his shotgun*

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The car he's selling comes with a price. It's your soul.

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In the missionary's mind, the car in this case comes with a dealer rebate which gives you back your soul, plus the dealer is paying off the debt on the old car as well.

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Oh sure, some whackos trick it out and use it to run over people, but it is not, in fact, broken, outdated, or otherwise non-functional.

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I the way you put that.

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Now...let me get away from the analogy for a moment. It's okay to have a faith. It's okay to go over and offer aid in the spirit of universal love as part of your faith. That is, after all, what I said earlier. People should focus on doing that sort of thing for one another. On the other hand, there is a line between "My religion tells me to help everyone, so here's some food" and "My religion tells me to help everyone, so here's some food, and here's me expounding on why your religion is WRONG and why you should join my religion."

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Ahah! So basically, bring food and water but leave the medicine back home? Or bring the water and medicine but forget the food? Have you considered that these Christians want to give them the WHOLE package as they see it?

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In other words, missionaries seem too much like those zombieish cultists droning "Join us...join us..." to me.

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Lol.

I may not agree with the manner in which these missionaries want to spread their faith, and they probably have a number of wrong ideas, but I think their hearts are in the right places.

Of course, the above could be said of any number of religions, depending on your PoV. Further pursuit of this topic is probably wasted effort. What it all trickles down to is the PoV you look at it from.

I hate logic some days.

[ 04-28-2003: Message edited by: Star Collective ]

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Lawst Informat attempted to be funny by writing:
Especially those Apostles. Don't forget that guy named Paul either! Worst of the the lot.

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Dad?

I always find it funny how it's never really the "other" religions that do this, either. The Wiccans don't go over trying to tell how great their gods and goddess are. The atheists don't try to go convince other people they shouldn't believe there's a god. And people like me, I believe in Fate more than a god, we don't try to convert people to that way of thinking. Why, then, are there so many examples of intolerance toward other religions from the Christian faith?

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Why, then, are there so many examples of intolerance toward other religions from the Christian faith?

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Monotheism. The cornerstone of the three faiths Jewish, Christianity, and Islam. The belief there is only one God, all other gods are simply false gods, idolatry, or demons.

Most Pagan religions follow a belief in Pantheism. Many gods. This allows for tolerance in many ways because nothing about the Monotheists conflict with their over all views. What? Another God? Throw him in the Pantheon! The more the merrier. The God the monotheists worship can be one more to the divine mix.
Most modern paganism is just that, a mix of several ancient traditions. They seem to pick and choose what they like from several religions and adopt it.

The three branches on the other hand can't be overly tolerant. By command of their God. Worship ONE God, there are no other gods. To even entertain the fact is in direct violation of their God's commands. The pagan beleif system is in direct conflict with the essence of the Monotheististic Abrahamic traditon. Jews are supposed to isolate themselves as God's chosen people. The Christians believe it is their duty given by Christ to convert all nations. The Muslims are supposed to convert by any means at hand including the sword. Islam has special dispensation for tolerance of Jews and Christians as People of the Book. Pagans and non believers are to be put to the sword.