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Wiccai is a Pagan/Wiccan martial art system that focuses on both internal and external elements. It was founded by Phoenix Pangaryk in the 1990\'s to meet the needs of this rapidly expanding demographic. First publication expected out next year. Wicca, a theological system rooted in the aborignial Shamanic faiths of Western Europe, lacked a martial art system. In response, Phoenix Pangaryk, a Hung Gar practitioner, incorporated the phylums of the animal kingdom and the Shamanic concepts associated with shape shifting as the heartbeat of a system that specifically addresses the needs of the Wiccan/Pagan community. Wiccai is an animal system that does not insist on core animals, rather, it focuses on mastery of foundation blocks, kicks, strikes, grapples, hand positions, etc., including those of the specific animals found in Hung Gar. Wiccai focuses on training the student to identify which animal familiars they relate to within the phylums, and to apply the concepts of shape shifting and appropriate martial arts techniques in the creation of personal form. Additional studies include the comprehension of the movement, flow and manouevrability of Akashic Energy (Chi/Qi) to fuel each of the artist\'s \

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Ran across this in my ongoing martial arts research. Not sure whether it's , , , or what . . .

Honestly. "It lacked a martial art." The hell...? Since when are things like "religion," "faith," and "spiritualism" associated with beating the pasta fazool out of somebody?
Absolutely ridiculous...

[EDIT] Oh yeah, I guess I could tell you what I edited. I expounded upon my point. And in the second edit, I wrote this. Don't like it? Well, don't blame me. Blame yourself or god.

[ 01-08-2002: Message edited by: Sentow ]

srry that was the funniest things i have ever heard

wiccians + martial arts

thats like mixing a Football game with a Physics lecture

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ArchAngel had this to say about Tron:
I don't suppose it happens to have a website?

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Haven't run across it except in that single list of forms.

Try Google?

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Sentow had this to say about Matthew Broderick:
Since when are things like "religion," "faith," and "spiritualism" associated with beating the pasta fazool out of somebody?

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for quite some time now actually.

Martial Arts is as much about centering one's spirit and focusing it through discipline as it is anything else.

Also the fact that one of the first lessons taught by any good instructor is how to AVOID fighting. I don't think there is a single martial artist out there who has really studied and who belives that Martial Arts is only about beating people up.

That ain't right!

*Looks around for martial arts to learn*

[ 01-08-2002: Message edited by: greykittytwilight ]

I copied that verbatim from a serious Kung Fu site listing and explaining the main style variants.

I think it rather funny, personally, if not a bit pathetic.

im not wiccan but i do own alot of "wiccian" literature... its silly

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Do your own research.
I copied that verbatim from a serious Kung Fu site listing and explaining the main style variants.

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Did I offend? Such hostility..*purr* Gitta grip, sugah.

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I think it rather funny, personally, if not a bit pathetic.

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I agree, most definately.

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Lawgiver Cadga had this to say about pies:
this is silly cause most so called wiccans i know ar full of shit and know jack squat about it they jut think they can gonna cast uber spells and make themselves into animals...

im not wiccan but i do own alot of "wiccian" literature... its silly

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and I know people who are wiccans... and will agree with you rofl
I'm not Wiccan and I agree with you... spells don't work like that.

Since you don't address anyone else, I can only assume you're talking to me, as originator of the thread. Fair enough.

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*nose twitches* I sense a facade of information.

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That tells me you smell something funny, and think I've given you only part of the truth.

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Find some backup articles on the subject.

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That directs me to do further research to appease your earlier suspicion that I've only given you part of the story. I find that offensive, on several counts.

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If there's more to it, then it's interesting to me. If not, then it proves a very sad scam.

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This warns me that, if I'm not withholding information, you'll be interested. If not, you imply I'm engaged is some sort of "very sad scam." I find that highly annoying. I don't troll.

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Perhaps you didn't mean it that way, and were referring to the movement to incorporate martial arts into Wicca itself.

Unfortunately, I have no way to tell from the way you phrased things. So I opted not to flame, but rather demonstrate my unwillingness to put up with obvious affronts.

Clarity of expression is a good thing.

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Clarity of expression is a good thing

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Aye. So allow me to clarify 'ere fer ya. Chill out! Taking things so literally. No need..If I was directing it to you, Ide have said your name or PM'ed you.

Really: I used the "stuff" tag, and everything. I always use the "not funny" tag as a warning I'm getting annoyed.

Honestly, what was my clue you weren't speaking to or about me? Context seemed to indicate you were. And, uh, last I checked, there wasn't really another way to take someone's written message except literally--in the absence of clues it's meant otherwise, at any rate. A well-placed "that article" would have done wonders for public relations.

FFS!

That is not to say, of course, that all wiccans are of that cloth. I've known two wiccans who I could carry on a conversation with about their religion, and it sounded very reasonable. They weren't nutty about magic or spells, they weren't screwy about what they believed. It was as legitimate, when portrayed by them (while in no way being as preachy) as any other more mainstream religion. It bordered on the Taoist philosophy (which in my opinion it draws heavily from, with a good deal of the latter-years Taoist mysticism tossed in).

Paganism, likewise, can either sound like a great idea or a really silly idea. There are the few (like my friend Deb) who Believe with a capital B, but who believe in such a way that they sound no more nutty than the folks who quietly Believe in Christianity. She can explain why she Believes, and talk about it intelligently. Then there are other people I've met who are like most of the Wiccans I've met; screwballs big on the idea of magic, or worse people who like to min/max their religion ("My patron gods are Thor and Zeus!").

I think the sad fact is that Wicca and Paganism are alternatives to the status quo, and therefore tend to attract a lot of people who like things that sound good, but have that are immature about spirituality and religion to begin with. So you end up with people attracted to whoever can offer the most flash and magic and ego stroking.

Just my humble opinion.

I'm not trying to impress anyone, nor is my friend Christina or her boy friend. We're not trying to be cool, and cast spells. In accuallity most of what I do is herbal, and energy type stuff.

I find it really funny, when a goup of teen "wiccans" ask me why they can't change their hair or eye color like in The Craft. The look of "yeah right, what ever" on their faces is pricless when I tell them, because they don't have special effect guys like they did in the movie.

Maybe if parents wern't so damned controling "Christianity is the right way!" additude.. maybe their kids wouldn't be looking for ways to rebel.. Maybe if Paganism and Wicca was made more publicaly known for what they really are, they wouldn't be used like that.

I donno...

but we live in the society the Media makes for us.

all the more reason I want to make a commune...

*grins* I bet you half of those WW Wicans you know don't even know what the Wiccan Rede is

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Ja'Deth Issar Ka'bael had this to say about Captain Planet:
Then there are other people I've met who are like most of the Wiccans I've met; screwballs big on the idea of magic, or worse people who like to min/max their religion ("My patron gods are Thor and Zeus!").

I think the sad fact is that Wicca and Paganism are alternatives to the status quo, and therefore tend to attract a lot of people who like things that sound good, but have that are immature about spirituality and religion to begin with. So you end up with people attracted to whoever can offer the most flash and magic and ego stroking.

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Im realy, realy peeved at people like this, makes me wanna beat the lot of the new-age hippies like this with a stick.

i can't put it to words as well as you can though, you should be a lecturer in a college or somthing

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Ja'Deth Issar Ka'bael had this to say about Captain Planet:
Probably not. that sort of religious person tends to "forget" or "ignore" or "discount" elements of it they don't like.

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Do as thou will, at the Harm of none.

And how quickly they forget the Three-Fold.. =\ untill it happens.

LOL Ankle no maiming people!

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Do as thou will, at the Harm of none.

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should be dogma for everybody.

It shouldn't take a religion to teach people not to hurt each other.

No reason. Why?

~~~

On the religion discussion:

First, "paganism" is not a religion. "Pagan" is simply a word Christians used to use to describe anyone else--especially anyone pan- or poly-theistic.

Which is pretty damn funny, when you see people calling themselves pagan as if that meant anything at all. There never was, nor is there now, any coherent belief set for "pagans." Druids, Hindus, and Aztecs were all equally pagan.

Recently, some have been trying to ressurect certain animistic and spiritualistic traditions--rarely in a consistent manner--to hop onto the New Age bandwagon of mystic beliefs. It fits nicely with the modern politically correct notion that all things aboriginal are somehow superior to all things civilized.

Wicca as a church is also a rather recent development. While perhaps inspired by early nature-worship, it's actually rather a mish-mash of that, early Satanic practices of witchcraft, shamanism, and even refines modern Satanism to be a bit more palatable.

It's interesting, for example, that the major credo of at least one version, "An' it harm no one, do what thou wilt," is so close to Anton La Vey's single commandment. {Add: might have been Alistair Crowley's--I get them mixed up rather frequently.}

Depending, of course, upon which subset one practices, since it's still finding itself as a movement.

In short, it's not as if there is any long history or generally accepted beliefs to which one may refer when discussing either. Christianity also has just under a gazillion sects--if you only count the major ones--yet there is a certain meta-philosophy one may discuss without bothering with the individual practices of each subset.

[ 01-08-2002: Message edited by: Bloodsage ]

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Sentow impressed everyone with:
I'm not out to discredit Wicca at all here, but

should be dogma for everybody.

It shouldn't take a religion to teach people not to hurt each other.

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You're right... But it is the Wiccan Rede.

You don't have to be Wiccan to follow it though. No one ever said that.

And the accuall meaning of Pagan means "country farmer" there and abouts.

*shrugs* but I'd rather use the term Pagan for me to make it easier, since I've no reall *name* for what I believe in. I believe in alot of Native American old ways, alot of Druidic, and Celtic Shamanism ways.. and yes some Wiccan ways. I hodge podged, it felt right for me.

Pagan is an easy generic term. Since not all polytheistic people are Wiccan. It's just a widly accepted term.

I wasn't suggesting that Paganism was a new religion, nor was I expounding on its superiority or its history. There is a body of people who identify themselves as "Pagan" as a sort of catch phrase for having polytheistic (even cross-cultural polytheistic) beliefs. Same thing for Wicca. Wicca is, like every other religion, nothing more than a disseminated, distilled reaction to a previous religion. Popular religious thought more or less breaks it down to "Man starts with no gods, then give spirits to all things that affect his life to explain them and thus brings to life Animism. Animism then becomes Polytheism when Man begins to relate to the animistic spirits in such a way that makes them more like Man itself. Polytheism often begets the radical change into Monotheism, which almost always in turn relies on "closet polytheism" in the form of demons, devils, angels, or saints". Taking that statement to the next level, Monotheism can trigger off "radical change" back to Polytheism. Or even into more bizarre (from the aspect of traditional religion) things like Deism.

Wicca is a little better, since it's an organized movement consciously building a set of beliefs and tenets from pieces of the past, present, and hoped-for future. It is, if you will, the Kwanzaa of religions.

That's all I was pointing out. A surprising number of Wiccans assume it's an ancient religion with a history of persecution. It isn't.

People can worship their pet rocks, for all I care, as long as they keep it out of my face. And that includes whining about how unfair life is when one chooses not to fit in.

For the longest time, the birth of Jesus was celibrated in March. But when they went on a conversion spree, they saw that the Druids, and other polythiestic religions, celebrated Yule as the rebirth of the Slain, or Green God. The Christian Church thought they could use this as a way to convert the "pagans" to worship their god and saviour. Basicaly saying that thier slain or green god was their christ, and all that lovely talk.

Lucifer? He was accually a lesser Roman god who got the bum rap. He was the god of the morning star. And since the jewish people knew that god casted out an angel, the star was him.. and the bible recorders/translators stuck the lesser god's name in as the angel. Symbolisim as it's finest

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Bloodsage had this to say about Duck Tales:
It is, if you will, the Kwanzaa of religions.

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hee hee hee

eh...calling it Paganism doesn't rub me wrong. Could call it neo-polytheism for all I care. So they're not worshipping a popular polytheistic religion masquerading as a monotheism. Whoopee.

*shrugs* Despite having a rather large amount of interest in religion, I'm not a terribly religious man. I find it interesting for its connection to the nature of mankind and society, rather than being terribly insightful.

Though ideas of the devil predate the Romans by quite a bit, though he may have been renamed. That idea comes to Judaism via Zoroastrianism.

No one said Christianity was "better." It's simply evolved a coherent, essentially universal belief system.

Wicca hasn't done that yet.

"Pagan" is a rather meaningless term, except as a means of rejecting the Judeo-Christian belief set without providing further information.

Likewise Satan wasn't originally the same thing as the Devil either. If you imagine religion as a trial, God's the judge, you're the defendant, and the Satan (it was a title meaning "adversary" and a bastardization of the phonecian term Shai'tan at that) was just an angel sent to test your faith. The angel wasn't evil; in fact it was an angel of God (see the story of Job for a prime example of this). It's the New Testament and the Catholic church (filtered later into the assorted Protestant offshoots) that largely screwed with the traditional notion and turned Satan, Lucifer, the Serpent, etc into one Fallen Angel. It's great storytelling, but it's not at all accurate to how it was written originally.

Religions mature and change with time.

[ 01-08-2002: Message edited by: Ja'Deth Issar Ka'bael ]

Wasn't the concept of eternal conflict Zoroastrian, though? That's what I was referring to.

I was just pointing out that the poor god got a bum wrap for being the Roman's god of the morning star.

As long as humans were able to form ideas and religions there has always been some kind of "Devil, devils, Satan, Evil force" just as there has been a good counterpart.

the concepts of good and evil is very wella human concept. We can interprate animals as good and evil, put our judgment views on them by their actions. When a male croc eat's the young ones. We perseve that as evil. When in accuallity, he's probaly hungry and those were easy to get. Not thinking "Muhaha I'm a big bad evil crocadile, and I'm going to eat my kids!"