The short version is that Lyinar and Drys finally started working things out. Peachis isn't an issue. She's not a problem. Peachis good.

You might notice we're down a moderator (or one has been slotted who hasn't picked a nick yet). Lyinar's mod account got blitzed because she brought up an administration matter in a public forum (namely IRC). She brought up an administrative matter in a public forum because Drysart had in her opinion done something bad (and hadn't responded). End result, and this should be said once and for all...if you have a problem with the EC boards, email Drys. You can do it anonymously by modifying your emailer to not have a return email account (might require you with Outlook Express to create a second account in your emailer using the same server, etc, but with the preset return email address set to nil), or you can do it from your normal account. Either way, talking about administrative problems in public will get you in trouble. Drys says he's going to reply to all the email he gets in one form or another, so mail him. No sense in anyone else getting banned for speaking out. And if you get no response, do it again. Don't bring anything up in the IRC channel, either. Lyinar did and got her Mod status taken away.

So that's important lesson number one learned. Important lesson number two is one I would hope people would know by now, but it often seems they don't.

The community here isn't Drysart's boards. The boards are a thing. IRC is a thing. The community isn't a matter of where we meet (though if we didn't have a place to meet it would be a whole lot harder). Sure it started with Drysart's comic, but the fact is there hasn't been an Evercrest comic in a while because Drys is a busy guy. There are some people who hang out on the boards who've never even read the comics. Which says something.

The board is a collection of friends at its core. If there are any conflicts amidst the community's members, it should be fairly obvious that no matter what the topic is, we should be friends who respect each other. Problem is that sometimes that gets overshadowed. Feelings get hurt and all of a sudden...Kaboom. It's everywhere. It's happened before, when Lyinar and I first got back together and people wouldn't stop flirting (I hate to bring that up since it's passed, but it's an example). And it happened now, except this time it was between two friends who really trusted each other. I can see that for Drys it would be hard to look past the big fraggin' price tag this shebang costs...And Lyinar, when riled, can sometimes get off track with what she's angry about.

I just think it's a shame it went this far. What started with friends a long time ago ended with one friend hitting another friend with a "Rules and Regs" hammer. But it happened. I hope we all learn from this. Doesn't matter what "Side" you choose to take, because in the end there are no sides. We are we, community and friends. So the next time you decide to loose a cutting remark at someone, ask yourself if you're friends enough with them that making your decision won't hurt them. Think about your friend, in other words, before you say or do something that hurts. And if you do something you later regret, say so. It'll get it off your chest, and you can hopefully get back to that place you were at in the past with your friend.

Cost of this lesson:
1 friendship
1 moderator
Countless hours of strife, heartache, and combined anger and pain.

[ 06-19-2001: Message edited by: Ja'Deth Issar Ka'bael ]

I think I need to play my monk less... I am missing alot of stuff.....

These boards have seen a lot. They're alive. They're all the good things people said would come from the internet.

What we have here is the purest form of friendship, unmarred by physical existence and social prejudices that we don't even realize we make out in the "real world". Ironic that this world can often be more real than the one we live in.

The problem with pure things is that they stain easily, but with careful consideration, and some checking of prides, we can avoid and repair these things.

[ 06-19-2001: Message edited by: Maradon? ]

I disagree wholeheartedly with what you are doing. You are acting like you're god, just because you made these boards and keep them up. Why do you keep them up? Because you like the pleasure of them. You don't give a damn about us, honestly, do you? I don't think you do. You have been spoiled rotten ever since you moved to California. Maybe your stress has risen since working on Fallen Age. Maybe the smog has messed up your brain. I don't know what happened, except that you are not the same person you were when you lived in Michigan. I *LIKED* you when you lived in Michigan. Ever since you moved to California, you've been a different person.

Did you realize that the name Tim means respectable? You are not respectable right now. I am *ASKING* you as a concerned member of this board to take a step back, and look at how you're running things. I know it's your board, but it's also OUR board. We are not playthings. We are human beings, the same as you. Or have you forgetten that you're as human as we are? You make mistakes, just like we do.

Yes, I am supporting Lyinar. I have for awhile now, but I haven't been vocal. But damn it, I have to be vocal now, because this whole thing is ridiculous. It's laughable, even if it's not funny.

Again, I'm asking you to take a step back and look at how things are from our point of view. You're a tyrant. And I'm sorry, but tyrants don't stay popular for long.

I hope you read this whole thing, because I mean every word of it. You were a nice person. Bring back that nice person.

Soory. that was incoherent, and it's 2:30 AM.

He said yes.

What is up with that? Who here thinks *anyone* can dictate what you say in a private msg to someone on IRC?

And the reason my mod status was stripped was because my inability to 'follow the rules' and come to him with my problem first (Which, I might add, I tried to have Deth inquire into and he was blown off and ignored) and instead I ranted to my friends in the public channel that we hang out in. So because I didn't come to him first, when I knew full well he'd ignore me or blow me off, cause he has a history of it, I'm suddenly 'unfit to hold authority'.

Nevermind how good a mod I was before. Nevermind how everyone thinks I'm a good op in channel, and they're happy I'm in charge there, because they know that at least there's one person that will listen to them and take what they say and want into account. No, because I don't 'follow his rules, which I might add again make it *very* easy for him to ignore people, because you can't complain when he *does*, just keep going back and being ignored again and again, I'm unfit to be in authority. I think the large majority of you would disagree.

I'm sorry, but this whole situation is wrong. The rest of you that come into IRC, do you think it's right you have to *fear* what you say when he's in channel, because he'll use it against you here? No, that's not right. I don't want that for you. I'm not an operator in the channel to have you bullied and pushed around.

So before all the nay-sayers get here and start complaining about how I'm only doing this cause I'm not a mod anymore, stop. I don't care about being a mod. I want to protect the people I am in that room to protect. That room is an open forum, Cadga's boards, where my posting has also been used against me, is an open forum. It should NOT come into the running of this board at all, no matter how much it's claimed it 'reflects on my character'. I don't care. It's NOT EC, it does NOT signify.

THAT is why I'm speaking to you all about this here. Not for myself, for everyone else that would suffer under bullshit 'rules' like this one.

[ 06-20-2001: Message edited by: Lyinar ]

This explain anyhting?

quote:

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Originally posted by Pesco:
*blinks*

I think I need to play my monk less... I am missing alot of stuff.....

---

Ditto.

This board obviously operates under the principles of "at-will membership." Simply put, this means that you, as a member of this community, post here of your own free will. This also means, at any time, either party can terminate the relationship for any legitimate reason.

We seem to forget that Drysart is paying money out of his own pocket to maintain these boards that we love so much. The advertising banner, as I'm sure he'll tell you, probably isn't paying shit right now. So he's paying his money to maintain these boards.

That means that the boards are his to run in any way he sees fit. He doesn't have to answer to anyone. If anyone dislikes his practices, they are free to leave at any time. They are in no way obligated to stay.

But, just because he can do a thing doesn't mean he must do this thing. Maybe he shouldn't do some of the things he does. It's entirely possible; I'm not informed enough on the situation to make judgements one way or another.

The point is that we are here because we want to be, not because we have to be. These are Drysart's boards, and, should you dislike his moderation methods, you are free to leave.

You are also free to try to effect change on board policy, so long as you do so in a reasonable manner, I'm sure. But, until we start covering the costs of maintaining this board, we are not entitled to dictate policy.

"But what about freedom of speech?" Freedom of speech holds true in any public place. These boards are private. Therefore, this is a non-issue.

Now, before I get flamed, please note that this is how I see things. I do not have all the information. My views are based on nothing but simple, well-known facts about the board in general. I do not make judgements on people; I'm only pointing out what is a basic truth about this board.

You cannot talk about being a Guide outside of the Guide Boards or with other Guides.

It doesn't matter where.

It doesn't matter in what venue.

Guides cannot talk about Guide policies procedures, other Guides or the Program ANYWHERE else, ever. You are not supposed to talk about being a Guide to anyone, not even in your own private ICQ messages, and if Verant finds you that have, they will remove you from the program.

They expect you to come to them if there is a problem or you have a situation that needs to be resolved. They put trust in you to help them to maintain Customer Service for their Game, and the only way they can do that is by keeping problems with the program, within the program to be resolved.

I understand Lyinar’s concern that she wanted to bring out the issue she saw in IRC because she felt it would get his attention, but he said adamantly that he didn't want anyone talking about other admins, especially Moderators outside of talking to him directly. This issue is only about a day old. If Lyinar had gone to him about it, it may have taken him a day to get back to her, but that's just Tim. Do you know how much e-mail he gets everyday? Lots. Not every issue can be resolved right then, right there.

Perhaps it would help if Lyinar went right to Drysart about the issue and waited for his response. That’s my suggestion.

Perhaps it would help if Drysart, when getting a concern via E-mail or PM’s he could respond with “I’m looking into it for you.” So the person knows he’s aware of your concern, rather than someone thinking they are being ignored. That’s my suggestion.

I've known Drysart for a long time, and I can and will say that he is a very caring, compassionate and trusting person.

People at times, may do things that will get interpreted negatively, and that's honestly what I think has happened here.

Drysart has never don’t anything to purposefully anger any of you. He didn't do anything to Lyinar or anyone else here who’s ever been banned because he wanted to hurt them or with the specific intent of making them upset.

Remember for a moment that everyone here on this board has feelings, ideas, and is individual. And think about this for a moment. There are a lot of you.

There is only one Drysart.

He doesn't have these boards so we can bicker and complain about policies and procedures about how he runs things ON the boards. He does care about you all, or he would have shut them down a long time ago.

Some of you say he needs to take a step back and look at things. I'd also suggest that for all of you.

Drysart may not have the best communication skills, he may not handle everything in every situation exactly how everyone would like him too; but please, because you are his friend, give him the benefit of the doubt that he's doing everything he can, to the best of his ability.

I honestly think that there are suggestions that could help. I’ve made mine above as an example. And I think you all should share yours, too. But lets keep them as suggestions, non-accusatory and inflammatory on what kind of person Drysart is, or where he lives, or what you think has changed about him.

Do it in e-mail to him, or a PM. Don't do it here.

I know if ever I have something in my teeth I’d prefer a friend to lean over the table and whisper to me, rather than scream laughing to the room, "LOOK! She's got something in her teeth!!"

Thanks,
Peach

I am not a sheep. Please do not determine that I am simply "following the crowd" based on....well...nothing.

*bows and walks out*

quote:

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Originally posted by The Last Strider:
*has no idea what everybody is talking about, so will not comment*

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That's an excellent idea. Ignorance is bliss sometimes.

I wish I had bliss.

quote:

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Originally posted by Lyinar:
What is up with that? Who here thinks *anyone* can dictate what you say in a private msg to someone on IRC?

---

You obscure the root issue by exaggerating the situation to make it look like I was invading your privacy.

It's very simple: Anyone that's been around here a long time remembers how the board used to erupt into some major dispute every couple of days, usually resulting in several members leaving the board, bad blood between those members left, and in the end, nothing positive getting accomplished as a result of it. Mob mentality made the problems into a much bigger deal than they actually were.

So I set down a rule that you should deal with your problems in private, and if that doesn't help, come to me instead. Everyone seemed to agree with it at the time, nobody voiced any problems with it. When the time came around to write the new board rules (the current set), and based on the last shitstorm caused by Lyinar bringing admin issues to the board at large, I put in a rule that any concerns you have about the board moderators or administrators should be brought to me in private.

There are two places in the rules where I repeat the same thing several times to emphasize them, because they are something I feel very strongly about. This is one of them.

If you have a problem with a moderator or admin, bring it to me privately, and this was specifically stressed to all moderators when they were given their position.

Lyinar did not do that. I came home last night from getting dinner to find the IRC channel boiling in an argument about how nobody needs admin access, stemmed from the fact that a post was accidentally edited yesterday.

It doesn't matter how official or unofficial of a venue the IRC channel is. My intentions by that particular board rule are very clear: nothing gets solved when mob mentality is brought into a problem, so bring the problem to me so we can resolve it maturely.

Lyinar intentionally disregarded that rule and my wishes by taking the issue to other people instead of me. As she has shown that she has no regard for my intention on how board issues should be handled, her moderator status has been removed.

You can't enforce the rules if you don't follow them yourself. Moderators are held to a higher standard of following the rules than everyone else, even when they're not on their moderator account performing moderation actions. Anything less taints the trust I have in your ability to enforce the rules, and nobody's going to convince me that I should have moderators I don't trust.

She has not been banned, and I'm not howling to have her removed as an op in IRC. This is solely a factor that she admittedly intentionally disregarded the very rules she was supposed to be upholding and as such isn't fit a moderator. My problem is not that she didn't agree with who is an admin and who's not, but that she chose to break the rules (one of the two most important rules, no less) instead of resolving her problem the way I had asked her to.

Not to mention that she then violated the trust in her position out of spite after she was removed as a moderator by revealing the normal identity of another moderator. She validated that she can not be trusted to be a moderator.

[ 06-20-2001: Message edited by: Drysart ]

I'll just stick to the boards, where you can take back what you've said by virtue of the EDIT button. Or is IRC really worth it (given my wierd hours and all)?

quote:

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Originally posted by ChibiDragon:
I've been thinking about getting my computer set up for IRC (I really have no idea how, even after reading the thread about it). Now I'm getting the feeling that I don't want too.

I'll just stick to the boards, where you can take back what you've said by virtue of the EDIT button. Or is IRC really worth it (given my wierd hours and all)?

---

It's worth it. Just for #RPcrest if anyhting and plus, #Evercrest is usually fun, just leave if war breaks out.

For those of you that wish you were on chat last night thinking you could have done something that would have helped or make things different, FORGET ABOUT IT. Chases are, anything you would have said would only have made things worse.

Regardless of the consequenses, I'm glad this happened. I saw this building up for awhile.

As you may or may not know, I do "favor" Lyinar over Drysart. It is not because I hate or hold an animosity towards Drysart. I don't. It is just when ever there was a concern I had, while Drysart SAID he was approachable, Lyinar MADE herself approachable. There was just this more approachable feeling I got from her. There is a difference between saying and doing.

And let me just state, since I haven't done so yet clearly, this all MY OWN OPINION. No one forced me to "one side." I chose my own path and took whatever consequences that came with them.

I have great respect for Drysart and really appreciate the existance of this board. It has allowed me to meet many good and interesting people and make friends. THAT is why I am here. If there was a way I could help Drysart to maintain this board for the good of the community that has formed here, I would glad try my best and do it.

Sorry if I was rambling. I alway tend to do that when I get long winded like this. The point I am trying to make is that something big happened last night, and well, I don't know what is going to happen anymore. I just hope that we do not forget that we are a community and we need to be able to help each other out.

The issue is that obviously no one is safe from the heavy hand of Drysart if he believes that he's free to use what anyone says anywhere against them. I never once mentioned my mod status in the channel, at all. And I think I should have the right, as should everyone else, to say what they want in that channel without fear of retribution by Drysart for it, especially since it's not his domain at all and he stays there at Kennatsu's discretion.

quote:

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Originally posted by Geeorn:
i know Yam, isn't it fun to hear the "adminastrative peoples" bitch it out?

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hehe....

quote:

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Originally posted by Yamaneco Yuuki:
Weeeee! The age of hate and authority mongering is upon us again! Let's throw rocks and arguments at each other because that person has authority and we want it too!!

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You're missing the point. I had authority and I really don't care that I lost it. What I care about is the fact that people can't feel safe in the IRC room cause they have to fear retribution for it here. It's not right to have that sort of power over people there, just because you control something here that they value highly and want to stay around for. It's not his right to judge on something said in IRC. It's a free speech place and should be protected as such.

thats all i have to say