The idea of Traditional Gender Role (as defined by this poll) places a heavy emphasis and independence on male dominance, putting them in the position of breadwinner, overall organizer and coordinator, with a more subtle idea of women as being homemakers, domesticians and the sort of ;backbone; of their mates.
Your thoughts are welcome.
Under capitalism, man exploits man. Under communism, it's just the opposite. - John Kenneth Galbraith
Although, I wouldn't be surprised if our (western) society becomes a matriarchy in about 200 years.
--Satan, quoted by John Milton
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Pvednes said this about your mom:
They're essential and entirely liberating.
Would you mind explaining this a little more? Traditionally gender roles have been some of the most socially constricting forces on both men and women that exist. They also tended to get you ostracized very quickly if you broke them.
Also:
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Karnaj obviously shouldn't have said:
Traditional gender roles are for homos.
Dr. Gee fucked around with this message on 09-27-2009 at 02:59 PM.
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Bloodsage has funnier quote texts than me:
Gender roles are for the small-minded.
I agree. It's an antiquated concept that needs to disappear.
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Fly Me To The Moon had this to say about Jimmy Carter:
It's pretty much impossible for middle class and below families to support a family with only one person working fulltime hours. Both people need to be the 'bread winners' unless one of them is very successful.
That's not necessarily true. You can survive on a single income at the low to mid level if you can restrain your cashflow and define wants versus needs and act accordingly.
For instance, in my relationship at this moment I am the sole breadwinner and I make somewhere in the neighborhood of $45,000/year (including all of the military allowances), which puts me solidly in the lower middle class range. I have a decent savings, retirement, and my family is well provided for. In the cases where I want something that is beyond my budget, I have to forcast and wait for several months to get it, but that is part of the game.
And in answer to the question, I am of the mind that gender roles are an antiquated concept that has no real bearing in life or equality. I get into debates with the guys at work all the time who cannot comprehend my willingness to work while my husband watches the kids and attends night college, as most of my coworkers have lifestyles that can only be supported by two people working full time. I've run into people who blatantly believe that a man's place is at work and that a woman's place is at home with the kids, and they cannot fathom the 'gender switch' that has taken place in my case.
I think that is small minded concept as a whole and I refuse to be a part of it.
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Dr. Gee obviously shouldn't have said:
Would you mind explaining this a little more? Traditionally gender roles have been some of the most socially constricting forces on both men and women that exist. They also tended to get you ostracized very quickly if you broke them.
They provide a sturdy cultural outlet for natural biological inclinations. They're a comfortable way to experience Western civilisation at its best as a man or a woman.
The modern putsch for gender neutrality is exactly the opposite. It is deeply uncomfortable for both sexes, and provides no support for natural inclinations except for the minorities who do themselves happen to be naturally inclined towards neutrality.
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Pvednes had this to say about Knight Rider:
They provide a sturdy cultural outlet for natural biological inclinations. They're a comfortable way to experience Western civilisation at its best as a man or a woman.The modern putsch for gender neutrality is exactly the opposite. It is deeply uncomfortable for both sexes, and provides no support for natural inclinations except for the minorities who do themselves happen to be naturally inclined towards neutrality.
This is a concise way to put my view on it. There are definite biological and socialized differences that lend themselves to differing tasks and overall roles.
The concept of traditional gender roles is not damaging on its own. The problem comes when people decide that the construct inflexible and absolute.
My wife is the primary breadwinner in our family and I handle the majority of the domestic tasks. Authority is pretty evenly shared, though the wife will generally give me her opinion and then have me make the final decision. We also run an opera company in which she's the final word on any artistic decisions and I am the final word on the various business decisions.
It is by caffeine alone I set my mind in motion. It is by the beans of Java the thoughts aquire speed, the teeth acquire stains, the stains become a warning. It is by caffeine alone I set my mind in motion.
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Azakias had this to say about pies:
That's not necessarily true. You can survive on a single income at the low to mid level if you can restrain your cashflow and define wants versus needs and act accordingly.For instance, in my relationship at this moment I am the sole breadwinner and I make somewhere in the neighborhood of $45,000/year (including all of the military allowances), which puts me solidly in the lower middle class range. I have a decent savings, retirement, and my family is well provided for. In the cases where I want something that is beyond my budget, I have to forcast and wait for several months to get it, but that is part of the game.
And in answer to the question, I am of the mind that gender roles are an antiquated concept that has no real bearing in life or equality. I get into debates with the guys at work all the time who cannot comprehend my willingness to work while my husband watches the kids and attends night college, as most of my coworkers have lifestyles that can only be supported by two people working full time. I've run into people who blatantly believe that a man's place is at work and that a woman's place is at home with the kids, and they cannot fathom the 'gender switch' that has taken place in my case.
I think that is small minded concept as a whole and I refuse to be a part of it.
How much in debt is your family. Are you renting or own a place? Fly Me To The Moon fucked around with this message on 09-27-2009 at 04:49 PM.
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Verily, Damnati doth proclaim:
This is a concise way to put my view on it. There are definite biological and socialized differences that lend themselves to differing tasks and overall roles.The concept of traditional gender roles is not damaging on its own. The problem comes when people decide that the construct inflexible and absolute.
My wife is the primary breadwinner in our family and I handle the majority of the domestic tasks. Authority is pretty evenly shared, though the wife will generally give me her opinion and then have me make the final decision. We also run an opera company in which she's the final word on any artistic decisions and I am the final word on the various business decisions.
This is your view on it? But isn't Pvednes arguing for traditional roles? It seems like your situation is not particularly traditional at all.
I've chosen to live the traditional role, but that's because I find it a comfortable mode of living.
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Mr. Parcelan stopped staring at Deedlit long enough to write:
This is your view on it? But isn't Pvednes arguing for traditional roles? It seems like your situation is not particularly traditional at all.
Our situation isn't traditional but our views are. My wife and I are comfortable with the arrangement we have but we've also seen any number of people have difficulty finding their way and place in the world without guideline of traditional roles.
To my way of thinking, there's no liberation or power to be found in defining equality as sameness and then trying to dispense with the roles that resulted from natural inclination.
It is by caffeine alone I set my mind in motion. It is by the beans of Java the thoughts aquire speed, the teeth acquire stains, the stains become a warning. It is by caffeine alone I set my mind in motion.
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Damnati impressed everyone with:
Our situation isn't traditional but our views are. My wife and I are comfortable with the arrangement we have but we've also seen any number of people have difficulty finding their way and place in the world without guideline of traditional roles.To my way of thinking, there's no liberation or power to be found in defining equality as sameness and then trying to dispense with the roles that resulted from natural inclination.
Right, but as per the definition for this poll, you're pretty much very non-traditional, aren't you?
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From the book of Mr. Parcelan, chapter 3, verse 16:
Right, but as per the definition for this poll, you're pretty much very non-traditional, aren't you?
In the strictest terms, yes. However, the major differences lie in that my wife makes the money and I do the domestic tasks. Otherwise, we're pretty traditional.
Edit: to clarify, I do all the other traditionally male elements of your poll and my wife the female ones. Damnati fucked around with this message on 09-27-2009 at 07:32 PM.
It is by caffeine alone I set my mind in motion. It is by the beans of Java the thoughts aquire speed, the teeth acquire stains, the stains become a warning. It is by caffeine alone I set my mind in motion.
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Fly Me To The Moon had this to say about (_|_):
How much in debt is your family. Are you renting or own a place?
The brief rundown would be this:
I own a truck and a car. Approximately $3000 on a credit card, and I own my home (paying the mortgage, but virtually the same thing).
Under almost no conditions will a 5'9" 140lb female with a 16% body fat be as physically capable as a 5'9" 140lb male with a 16% body fat even assuming both do precisely the same activity every day.
A man's skeleton has broader shoulders than a woman's, a longer ribcage, and a pelvic girdle optimized for walking/running. In exchange, women get a wider pelvic opening to keep down the frequency of death during childbirth.
Male skeletal muscles are generally faster and have higher maximum power output than female muscles, faster contraction and relaxation time, and thanks to testosterone vs estrogen levels males also have a quicker recovery for muscular tissue.
This makes it easier for men to do pretty much anything physically draining, especially on a regular basis. Most work through the history of humanity was extremely physically intense. Thus, it was done by those who could do it better and the women and children took care of other tasks.
That being said, medication and willpower have rendered it to where either gender can take pretty much any role they desire, they just may need a bit more effort to make it happen, and evolution will catch up eventually if it sees the need.
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Verily, the chocolate bunny rabbits doth run and play while Pvednes gently hums:
You don't necessarily have to live a traditional role to approve of it.I've chosen to live the traditional role, but that's because I find it a comfortable mode of living.
That's the fallacy of your argument. Banishing the social pressure to conform to outdated gender norms in no way inhibits those who choose to live them.
The point is that it should be just as acceptable to be a stay-at-home dad as a stay-at-home mom. You, of all people, should also know there's not a whole lot of biology behind these stereotypes, but much more in terms of arbitrary cultural adaptations.
--Satan, quoted by John Milton
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Vallo, the Second Coming got a whole lot of nerve:
Traditional gender roles at this point are reinforced by physical structure due in part to evolution.
You're sort of missing the point of what we define traditional gender roles as. It's not referring to peak physical capacity or anything.
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Bloodsage got all f'ed up on Angel Dust and wrote:
That's the fallacy of your argument. Banishing the social pressure to conform to outdated gender norms in no way inhibits those who choose to live them.The point is that it should be just as acceptable to be a stay-at-home dad as a stay-at-home mom. You, of all people, should also know there's not a whole lot of biology behind these stereotypes, but much more in terms of arbitrary cultural adaptations.
Biology doesn't have much relation to the arbitrary specifics, but it does guide some overall themes within them, and has everything to do with the existence of gender roles in the first place.
Trying to "banish the social pressure to conform" is attempting nothing less than the destruction of a norm, and without a normative nature to our arbitrary specifics, they would be just as alien as wearing a grass dress and waving a pointy stick with feathers about.
If our current gender norms were destroyed, they will be replaced with new ones because that's just the way we work.
Do we have a 'modern' replacement for our arbitrary specifics? What's wrong with the arbitrary specifics we already have?
All I see in the former is an undefined campaign for gender role sameness, which I reject on aesthetic grounds. I don't know who would find that comfortable. I certainly don't, and I think its an idea found most uncomfortable by its supporters, who are trying to live it already.
I'm arguing on the assumption that the answer is no.
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Check out the big brain on Zair!
Just yesterday I worked in a bakery and helped them make cookies. Take that.
I've worked in a day care center for the past 8 years, moving up into management. Helping teach 6 month-olds to 12 year-olds puts me in an industry where less than 3% of the workforce is male. (According to this at least)
While my home life is pretty standard, I can safely say that while it's been difficult at times getting past some parents' views of men in the child care industry; it hasn't stopped me yet.
In short: I feel that gender roles are natural to some people, but shouldn't define how we view other people who don't want to follow them. 
Stay at home, girls. Cook, clean, iron, all the things we men dislike.
Know your place. 
Adhering to strict gender roles would place a greater deal of stress on my fiance, because she does an equal amount of bread-winning work. Which she's good at. If/when we decide to have child(ren), she'll take some time off of work, and then I will. Most parenting duties will likely fall with me, because I'm typically better/have more experience with children. We don't gender our behaviors or activities, and so do not suggest that we are performing man's or woman's work.
We've been together 6 years, cohabited for 3 years, engaged for 2 years, and owned our own home for 3 months. We both have four year degrees.
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LeMiere spewed forth this undeniable truth:
Family pressure to adhere to traditional gender roles upsets my domestic life with my fiance. There is an undue amount of pressure placed on my fiance to perform well as a hostess and caretaker, though we share those duties equally. I'm expected to have the final say in decisions (purchases, belongings, outings, jobs), whereas I believe our important decisions should be mutually agreed upon. Our families, who either reject or misunderstand our domestic choices, shame or criticize us when in our company. It's frustrating.Adhering to strict gender roles would place a greater deal of stress on my fiance, because she does an equal amount of bread-winning work. Which she's good at. If/when we decide to have child(ren), she'll take some time off of work, and then I will. Most parenting duties will likely fall with me, because I'm typically better/have more experience with children. We don't gender our behaviors or activities, and so do not suggest that we are performing man's or woman's work.
We've been together 6 years, cohabited for 3 years, engaged for 2 years, and owned our own home for 3 months. We both have four year degrees.
But don't you get it? You're secretly unhappy because she doesn't submit to you as the true Head of Household. If only she acted like a REAL WOMAN instead of trying to have a MANGINA you would both be so much happier.
I'm kind of surprised 'Sage and Karnaj haven't jumped into this more completely yet, but the thing that's irritating me isn't the declaration by Pved that he prefers the traditional gender relationship in his relationships and is happier that way. That's cool and I'm betting there are an awful lot of women who think along the same lines and if everyone's happy, hey that's great.
What's irritating is the assumption that one is incapable of happiness unless you stick to THE ABSOLUTE TRUTH OF ALL GENDER. I shall add another personal anecdote since that's all I'm capable of right now after a day of classes and Sudafed.
So I've now been in a grand total of two romantic relationships in my life. The first of which was pretty close to being a traditional role scenario. I was the one who ended up deciding what we would do, where we would eat, who we would hang out with, etc.
While I was generally willing to fly with this, I wasn't exactly thrilled about being in the dominant "male" role all the goddamn time. I'm really not looking for someone to be subservient, but am looking for an equal who's willing to make capable decisions on her own and to be her own person, not to exist through me.
This brings me to relationship number two. She and I tend to mix and match on gender roles. For instance, I surreptitiously grab her ass every now and then and after giving my arm an indignant girlie smack while giggling I usually get a smooch out of it. This is happiness. On the other hand, she is very happy to tell me to go fuck right off if she doesn't want to do something and she actually is active in saying, "Hey, let's do <thing>," rather than being reactive to whatever I want to do.
While I wasn't that unhappy with relationship one, I'm much happier in my current relationship. I feel like I actually have a partner rather than "a girlfriend" and it's pretty nice. We just do whatever works to make each other happy without worrying about whether it fits into a standard social role or not. Being able to do whatever feels comfortable between partners in a dyadic relationship is more the key than saying, "FUCK SOCIAL ROLES ARGHARGHARGH."
it's better that way
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Kegwen had this to say about Matthew Broderick:
woman you'd better stay at home so we can have less moneyit's better that way
by "we" do you mean straight guys?
OHHHH BURN
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Mortious attempted to be funny by writing:
ITT lots of guys who are whipped.
gb2 GBS
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Dr. Gee's account was hax0red to write:
So I've now been in a grand total of two romantic relationships in my life. The first of which was pretty close to being a traditional role scenario. I was the one who ended up deciding what we would do, where we would eat, who we would hang out with, etc.
My ex was like this, and it drove me completely batshit insane. Especially because, for the majority of our relationship, I was in a management role at work and having to tell people to do stuff all the time at work. So it was basically like coming home to work. That and I just think it's annoying in general to have to decide every single thing myself without ever being given any input.
Also, I don't necessarily feel that ALL stay-at-home-moms are a bad social custom or whatever, but the ones I've had experience with are pretty fucking retarded. Monica fucked around with this message on 10-02-2009 at 07:47 AM.
