The question here is if this is a good thing. While players will get more rewards per level, you'll have to spend more time during that levels. You'll have to spend more time killing fluffy bunnies to get to the halfway decent stuff. Furthermore, you won't even get access to the "epic" stuff(if we're really comparing it to D&D) until the first expansion. You'll be relatively limited until then.

Opinions folks? Its an interesting idea, but personally I don't think it will work. In my opinion, Turbine is trying to emulate D&D too strictly. What works in a PnP game doesn't work in a MMO universe. I don't see players wanting to spend 3x the amount of time on one level only to cap out relatively early before you get to the big stuff.

I really did try to find that soft, squooshy place inside that would sympathize with the plight of people who spend six or eight or twelve hours a day on videogames and who might be somehow put off by this. . .but failed. The answer to their woes is to get a life, not make MMOs inaccessible to those of us who already have them.

squee fucked around with this message on 08-18-2005 at 09:50 PM.

Direct quote from the FAQ "Characters will be limited to level 10 in the initial release, divided among four ranks per level. This will provide over 40 moments of advancement". This gives me the idea that it will be sorta like 40 levels upon release with each "rank" being like a lesser version of a level. Probably getting less stuff per rank than you might normally get at a level. But overall it evens out since it will take 3 times the experience per full level, but it will take 3/4ths the normal exp for a rank. So all in all it makes it seem like just as quick as a game such as Everquest. Just my opinion.

Alaan fucked around with this message on 08-18-2005 at 10:05 PM.

quote:

---

Nobody really understood why Sabratiz wrote:
Direct quote from the FAQ "Characters will be limited to level 10 in the initial release, divided among four ranks per level. This will provide over 40 moments of advancement". This gives me the idea that it will be sorta like 40 levels upon release with each "rank" being like a lesser version of a level. Probably getting less stuff per rank than you might normally get at a level. But overall it evens out since it will take 3 times the experience per full level, but it will take 3/4ths the normal exp for a rank. So all in all it makes it seem like just as quick as a game such as Everquest. Just my opinion.

---

See, that's kind of smoke and mirror. While there will be four ranks per level (the "cookies I mentioned), you only get increased HP, mana, saving throws, base attack points, etc every level. The rank thing makes it sound like 40 levels over 10 levels; its really 10 levels over 10 levels with 40 enhancements gained over those levels. In other words, the 10 levels will define your advancement while the 40 ranks are diversification for your character.

quote:

---

Bloodsage had this to say about Duck Tales:
It depends upon how much stuff there is to do at each level. If it really boils down to killing X more fluffy bunnies per level, then yeah, it'll suck. On the other hand, if there's enough content that you can do many different things to spend that time, then no big deal.

I really did try to find that soft, squooshy place inside that would sympathize with the plight of people who spend six or eight or twelve hours a day on videogames and who might be somehow put off by this. . .but failed. The answer to their woes is to get a life, not make MMOs inaccessible to those of us who already have them.

---

On one hand, its Turbine. No company has supported their game with patches as well as Turbine. They still have monthly/bimonthly patches for their storylines in AC and AC2 (though rumors of AC2's impending closure are sounding more true). They're good at providing content in patches. There is an issue of whether or not enough content will be available at release to satisfy MMO gamers though with such a direct translation of D&D without opening up levels 10-20 quickly.

As far as your second point goes, wouldn't this put off casual gamers just as much, if not moreso, than powergamers? The most common complaint in MMOs is the grind. With each level taking more exp to gain now, you're going to see levels less often and hit less milestones. Leveling from 5-6 could take a month for a casual gamer. That's not exactly encouraging; you're accomplishing the same amount but you don't feel rewarded for that. Big numbers make people feel good.

quote:

---

Talonus's fortune cookie read:
Big numbers make people feel good.

---

Exactly what I'm thinking is going to be wrong about this. Casual gamers will get bored fast, imo, if the gratification of levelling is pushed so far back.

I have to say I feel sorry for anyone who thinks having fun in a game is about leveling. It's that kind of mindset that turns every game into a grinding stat-fest.

Edit: grammar

Bloodsage fucked around with this message on 08-18-2005 at 10:43 PM.

quote:

---

This insanity brought to you by Talonus:

As far as your second point goes, wouldn't this put off casual gamers just as much, if not moreso, than powergamers? The most common complaint in MMOs is the grind. With each level taking more exp to gain now, you're going to see levels less often and hit less milestones. Leveling from 5-6 could take a month for a casual gamer. That's not exactly encouraging; you're accomplishing the same amount but you don't feel rewarded for that. Big numbers make people feel good.

---

I'm hoping that they can make the questing involved and fun so much that I dont care about leveling.

It's personally not my cup of tea, but I can see how the D&D framework supports this and makes it a bit different from the norm. I can see it turning out a lot similar to a PvE focused Guild Wars.

quote:

---

Bloodsage had this to say about pies:
I have to say I feel sorry for anyone who thinks having fun in a game is about leveling. It's that kind of mindset that turns every game into a grinding stat-fest.

---

That's pretty fun though IMO

quote:

---

Bloodsage had this to say about the Spice Girls:
Pretty much by definition, we casual gamers aren't about the "OMG I gotta level and have the best stuff and see everything first and cybar the boss gorilla." If there's enough diversity of challenging and fun content, the levels aren't really that relevant; lots of people play scrabble over and over again, and there aren't any levels--it's all about diversity of experience and fun.

I have to say I feel sorry for anyone who thinks having fun in a game is about leveling. It's that kind of mindset that turns every game into a grinding stat-fest.

Edit: grammar

---

All I'm saying is that it's gratifying to see the words "level up!" flash across the screen, one would think that it'd be better to slightly increase the frequency of said gratification. If the gratification is spread out, I find that in a given time (say you're a casual gamer-- maybe an hour), it is less gratifying to gain about 1/4th of a level than to have gained 2.

What gets boring is doing the same thing over and over again in order to level so one can see something new.

I mean, in D&D, you didn't mind levelling slowly because you would always have a different experience each session.

You'd travel the globe, finding different lands, meeting new people, fighting new monsters. Plus, things would often change, since it was completely up to the DM.

Now, when we consider the facts that: 1) no game has ever emulated D&D successfully and 2) dynamics are the complete opposite of what MMOGs are about, I'd say this won't work.

quote:

---

Talonus had this to say about pies:
Big numbers make people feel good.

---

quote:

---

Manticore had this to say about (_|_):
All I'm saying is that it's gratifying to see the words "level up!" flash across the screen, one would think that it'd be better to slightly increase the frequency of said gratification. If the gratification is spread out, I find that in a given time (say you're a casual gamer-- maybe an hour), it is less gratifying to gain about 1/4th of a level than to have gained 2.

---

Nah, not necessarily.

If levelling stops being something special, and you won't notice a difference between level 55 and 56, you don't really care anymore. You just want to hit the max level, and that's it.

Take AO for example. They have about 250 levels (or 220, or whatever) now. While you can customize your character every level, you hardly notice it when you actually level up. Or level up 5 times in about two hours. There's no big difference gamewise. Levelling simply stopped being something special.

I'm really looking forward to the "new" system DDO will try. Perhaps it will make levelling up something special again.

Tarquinn fucked around with this message on 08-19-2005 at 02:24 AM.

quote:

---

Tarquinn had this to say about Knight Rider:
Nah, not necessarily.

If levelling stops being something special, and you won't notice a difference between level 55 and 56, you don't really care anymore. You just want to hit the max level, and that's it.

Take AO for example. They have about 250 levels (or 220, or whatever) now. While you can customize your character every level, you hardly notice it when you actually level up. Or level up 5 times in about two hours. There's no big difference gamewise. Levelling simply stopped being something special.

I'm really looking forward to the "new" system DDO will try. Perhaps it will make levelling up something special again.

---

That's why I always kind of liked CoH.. Every level brought some sort of improvement to your character, even if it was as minor as a couple enhancement slots. On the flip side, it made it almost depressing to level an odd level..

At any rate, I'm somewhat interested. It's a very different system, but more closely matches D&D proper.. every actual level is real, important and is very satisfying to attain.

Yeah.. scripted responses in an MMOG are gonna be able to give me that.

quote:

---

Sean probably says this to all the girls:
Some of my favorite D&D sessions of all time have been those with no combat whatsoever; simple NPC/PC character interaction for hours, either plotting or scheming or whathaveyou.

Yeah.. scripted responses in an MMOG are gonna be able to give me that.

---

Yep. Or trying to outwit the GM out of combat (And getting a bigger XP bonus for doing so), etc.

Fun times.

quote:

---

And I was all like 'Oh yeah?' and Delphi Aegis was all like:
That's why I always kind of liked CoH.. Every level brought some sort of improvement to your character, even if it was as minor as a couple enhancement slots. On the flip side, it made it almost depressing to level an odd level..

---

Sadly the opposite is true at higher levels once you've got all the powers you actually want... the rest of the choices are often filler between buffing up your good powers.