To summarize, it's a 7/31/13 build, concentrating on crits with daggers.
Assuming the overall build doesn't completely blow ass (and it hasn't so far at 27, been routinely topping score charts in the BGs in all possible categories, even when I was 25 and there were level 30 rogues in the mix, and without a blue dagger), the things I'm not sure about Imp Ambush (and the opp pre-req) and Murder. That leaves me with 10 points from 51-60 to play around with, so I'm looking for some suggestions.
I'm also looking for anybody that has experience with a build like this and can offer advice on particular pieces of equipment to make sure to acquire (killing Arugal 12 times to get a Shard and not having one drop IStheSUK), general fighting tactics (Gouge+BS is already a favorite of mine) or particular gauges of effectiveness to watch for, such as what my base crit% should be, before counting in talents or crit gear.
To be blunt, the build sucks. Adrenaline Rush isn't meant for dagger rogues, since we need to pick up at least lethality and opportunity in order to dish out decent damage. Dagger specialization is nice, 5% more crit, but it's way too high up on the combat chart and you have to sacrifice a few key skills in order to get it. (Cold blood)
Also, killing blows mean jack shit in PVP. All it means is you were able to land the last blow. It doesn't mean you are AWESOME OMFG at PVP. Don't use that as a measure unless if you're trying to be witty and humorous.
Go 30/8/13 or 21/8/22. Addy fucked around with this message on 08-15-2005 at 03:18 AM.
If you want to be the absolute terror of WSG, go for Preparation instead; it was far more useful to me as a dagger rogue than any amount of extra energy regeneration. And get Improved Sap along the way.
Once you hit about level 50 I found dagger spec to quickly lose a lot of its appeal; but that may just have been my preference, seeing as how a good sword was much, much easier to come upon than an excellent dagger.
Precision, Dual Wield spec.. Eh. Precision later becomes moot, as the returns on +% To Hit max out at 5%, period. As soon as I can find a few alchemists I'll have +2% just from armor, leaving me with a few wasted points in my combat tree.
Also, in Assassination: Get Lethality. Get it. A 30% bonus to crit damage on Sinister Strike and Backstab is so massive that I still have it, even as a melee spec. Ruthlessness and Relentless Strikes are also very useful, but your mileage may vary. 
It's not something people hear about.
quote:
Addy wrote, obviously thinking too hard:
Also, killing blows mean jack shit in PVP. All it means is you were able to land the last blow. It doesn't mean you are AWESOME OMFG at PVP. Don't use that as a measure unless if you're trying to be witty and humorous.
I also tend to die the least and get the most flag returns as well. Every time I try to CAP the flag my team seems to scatter and leave me to die, so I usually let other people carry the flag while I play escort and interference (which I'm pretty damn good at), and it ends up being better for the team if I'm concentrating on slaying the people doing the chasing, rather than trying to run from them myself. But that's just the numbers, anything else is subjective and would require actually seeing me in action to judge.
As far as the build sucking, if I were concerned about being the min-max build, I'd be using one of those templates you see on the forums (I refuse to be a sword or mace rogue, btw). Half the point is to be unorthodox (it's something I do a lot), even if it means I'm not number crunching my way to the top. The points in combat are pretty much set. I'm getting Precision for the DW spec, and because I find it more useful than putting points into cooldown reductions.
However, as per the suggestions, I'll probably drop Imp Ambush and Murder and get Imp Evi, 2 into Remorseless, and then max out Lethality. Looks like it'll probably be more effective overall that way.
Since you're not going to be a sword rogue, I can't really help you with a build solution. I tried the dagger/crit rogue bit and got my ass handed to me. I went over to a Mace build and while in PVP it's probably nice, in PVE it wasn't able to keep up with the punishment I could dish out with the blade. For the record, I'm 20/31/0.
quote:
El Cuchillo had this to say about pies:
However, as per the suggestions, I'll probably drop Imp Ambush and Murder and get Imp Evi, 2 into Remorseless, and then max out Lethality. Looks like it'll probably be more effective overall that way.
If you're going to be a dagger rogue, dropping Imp Ambush is pretty silly.
And I see what Addy is getting at, namely that you can assassinate a target in a very small amount of moves with Imp Ambush, Imp Backstab, and then a Cold Blood Eviscerate.
Question is: Imp Vanish, or Imp Sap? Willias fucked around with this message on 08-15-2005 at 12:12 PM.
If you get either, you might as well get Prep, which mostly negates the bonus of Imp Vanish. If you need to Vanish every 3.5 minutes, you're probably doing something wrong.
It's not something people hear about.
Subtlety Mastery
Master of Deception Rank 5
Opportunity Rank 5
Improved Ambush Rank 3
Subtlety Total: 13
Combat Mastery
Improved Gouge Rank 3
Improved Sinister Strike Rank 2
Improved Backstab Rank 3
Deflection Rank 2
Precision Rank 5
Dagger Specialization Rank 3
Dual Wield Specialization Rank 5
Combat Total: 23
Assassination Mastery
Remorseless Attacks Rank 5
Malice Rank 5
Lethality Rank 5
Is the 30% crit bonus for Ambush a better way to go than an extra 2% in everything with the dagger spec?
I still hate you rogues, though. Lenlalron Flameblaster fucked around with this message on 08-15-2005 at 01:28 PM.
quote:
This insanity brought to you by JooJooFlop:
*Master of Deception Rank 5
*Improved Sinister Strike Rank 2
*Deflection Rank 2
*Precision Rank 5
*Dagger Specialization Rank 3
*Dual Wield Specialization Rank 5Is the 30% crit bonus for Ambush a better way to go than an extra 2% in everything with the dagger spec?
You really ought to go one way or the other; a mixed Combat/Dagger build has never served me well in the past. The obvious problem is the most crippling; daggers are too low damage for a good SS spam, and swords can't backstab or ambush.
If you want to go Backstab, drop the talents I listed above (Swap MoD for Camo, that's my current recommendation to all Rogues. MoD has been nothing but a waste of points for me.) in favor of more dagger friendly things like Preparation or - I've never used it personally, but a lot of Rogues swear by it - Hemorrhage. Alternatively you could work a bit further down Assassination to pick up some Poison talents, which Addy absolutely loves.
For a combat build just dump everything into Combat tree except 17 into Assassination; Imp Evisc, Malice, Ruthless, Relentless, Lethality. I'd recommend shying away from weapon-specific specializations unless you know you've got a pair of swords, maces or daggers that you'll be using for a very long time. Which I doubt, because maces and swords are a dime a dozen. Riposte is your friend, I can't stress that enough for Combat builders; it's comparable damage (often higher) than a SS, for ten energy after a parry, which you'll get often enough with Deflection 5/5. And it disarms your enemy. bling bling, mofo 
It's not something people hear about.
quote:
Lenlalron Flameblaster attempted to be funny by writing:
I still hate you rogues, though.
I hate you hunters, too. Break WSG more, please? 
It's not something people hear about.
It is by caffeine alone I set my mind in motion. It is by the beans of Java the thoughts aquire speed, the teeth acquire stains, the stains become a warning. It is by caffeine alone I set my mind in motion.
A melee rogue will get a substantial (about 42% by my logs) amount of their damage from Sinister Strike and Eviscerate, whereas a dagger build's damage comes almost entirely from Ambush and Backstab. Both builds, obviously, use poison like motherfuckers.
It's not something people hear about.
quote:
JooJooFlop wrote this then went back to looking for porn:
Is Combat a good primary route for PvE? Or am I gonna want to diversify?
Actually yes, pure combat does work for PvE, even in the higher end. We have two combat rogues (both wielding Vis'Kag) in my guild and they are near the top of the damage charts, sometimes past the perdition rogues (mainly on fights like Ragnaros). They do sick burst damage due to adrenaline rush, but if a dagger rogue has enough time they will generally pass them sooner or later.
As for the "ideal" combat build I honestly can't tell you since I haven't been combat in months, I think it's either a 20/31 or 17/34 build, not sure. Think the latter.
The big problem I can see with this build is that it's lacking in initial burst damage, which means 1v1 PvP will probably be more difficult, but (possibly) makes up for it with being a bit more sustainable in larger scale fights.
Improved Evis and BF, or 4 points into Remorseless. (Hmm, actually, that might be interesting for the ambush crit...)
Evis doesn't seem all that useful right now as it is, I'll probably end up using KS all the time once I get it. How's the effectiveness of Evis vs KS at high levels?
quote:
El Cuchillo wrote, obviously thinking too hard:
Well, there's a couple possibilities as I see it, for the last four points.Improved Evis and BF, or 4 points into Remorseless. (Hmm, actually, that might be interesting for the ambush crit...)
Evis doesn't seem all that useful right now as it is, I'll probably end up using KS all the time once I get it. How's the effectiveness of Evis vs KS at high levels?
What level is your rogue? Mine is 28, and even I'm starting to see the point of a 30/8/13 or 21/8/22 build.
The point of getting Cold Blood is to make your Eviscerate a guaranteed crit. Since melee has a crit damage bonus of 200%, that means you'll get a guaranteed double damage Evis.
I like the latter build myself, since I'd be getting Cold Blood AND Preparation, which means I can blind or vanish twice in a row if I so desire.
quote:
This insanity brought to you by Willias:
What level is your rogue? Mine is 28, and even I'm starting to see the point of a 30/8/13 or 21/8/22 build.The point of getting Cold Blood is to make your Eviscerate a guaranteed crit. Since melee has a crit damage bonus of 200%, that means you'll get a guaranteed double damage Evis.
I like the latter build myself, since I'd be getting Cold Blood AND Preparation, which means I can blind or vanish twice in a row if I so desire.
I'm not really a big fan of relying on cooldown abilities to kill stuff, I prefer having 'oh shit' cooldown abilities, like Ice Block from the Frost Mage tree. I'm not saying Cold Blood is bad (it's obviously not), but it's not something I want to rely on to kill things. Prep would be nice too, but it's a little too far down the sub tree. I'm trying for something more sustainable
rather than the 'smack three cooldowns and kill in two seconds' sort of rogues I tend to see.
Edit: Remember, half the reason behind this build is to be a little unorthodox. El Cuchillo fucked around with this message on 08-16-2005 at 08:03 PM.
