Local governments can sieze your home to make way for economic development now. This is slightly different since they could do that before, but only for clearly public things such as highways.
Now they can kick you out, bulldoze your place and put up an office complex.
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JooJooFlop had this to say about Optimus Prime:
Good, all those poor people really ruin my vibe when I'm in the city.
Duluth took over a block worth of buildings to build thier Duluth Technology Village, they managed to get an adult bookstore with a taudry history to close it's doors after a long legal battle. (Granted, the bookstore just moved into a new place a block and a half away)
And that's part of the problem: Because the legal battle over the old buildings took so long, (between the owners of the businesses/buildings and "historical preservation" societies) the 2 large software companies that had signed up to move into the building as soon as it was finished wound up pulling out. One business was a .com boomer so I can at least see part of thier reason for pulling out.
Also, because of this one HUGE mistake by the local government, Duluth hasn't been able to recover very well from it all. The city is running in the red and should just declare bankruptcy and start fresh. Taxes in the city have jumped as well, driving many businesses up over the hill to the town of Hermantown where the local government had the presence of mind to offer Tax Free Zones. (The city limits of Duluth and Hermantown meet, one city ends and another begins) One building owner in Duluth has said that from the late 1990's local taxes on his building have jumped from $10,000 a year to $35,000 a year. The Fire Department wants to charge every business it inspects $1400 for each inspection.
The Tech Village has become a white elephant of sorts. I think after only 5 or 6 years of existance it still isn't quite at 70% capacity. Some of the businesses are doing alright, A couple have little to do with "Technology". One floor is one of Cellular One's Call Centers, while I guess you could call it a technology company, it seems more like telecommunications to me. There's at least one floor of the 6 story building that is vacant.
Downtown along Superior Street looks great now, if you want to see Duluth's pale white underbelly you only have to go a block or two up the hill. But still downtown looks better. But still, 3 nights ago across the street from the relocated bookstore a scuffle broke out and some guy took a punch, fell backward and hit his head on the sidewalk and died. The perpitrator is still at large. Also, if you happen to be around downtown Duluth every morning at 5 or 6 AM you see some city trucks / street sweepers and guys in yellow jumpsuits scouring Superior Street of all the debris from overnight. Also the police picking up the usual suspects that have passed out in the alleyways or are still stumbling about from the night before.
Duluth can't attract new businesses. Boeing was looking at putting in a facility here. Duluth city officials couldn't close the deal. Grandma's Restaurants just within the last week have threatened to pull out of Minnesota and move down to Florida, partially due to taxes and also to do with smoking bans that the state has been trying to get passed. Grandma's Marathon has been going on up in Duluth for almost 30 years. It gets bigger every year and we've seen some world class runners here. It brings in MILLIONS of dollars to the region. If Grandma's moves, the marathon will probably move with it.
Leaving some things up to local governments isn't always the best idea...
Its not like they go "POOF!, YER HOMELESS!" They pay you for the property they sieze, and you are givin ample time to move.
And I mean no offense at all, but "Over my dead body" makes you sound like the rednecks around here that would say "You aint gettin my 2 acres, and you aint gettin my trailer". They are the US Government.. they can make "Over my dead body" happen.
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The logic train ran off the tracks when Kaiote said:
And I mean no offense at all, but "Over my dead body" makes you sound like the rednecks around here that would say "You aint gettin my 2 acres, and you aint gettin my trailer". They are the US Government.. they can make "Over my dead body" happen.
That's better than how I would have put it. I would have just mocked him by firing my blunderbuss skywards, taking a big swig of corn whiskey and fucking my sister.
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Check out the big brain on JooJooFlop!
and fucking my sister.
She still have all her teeth?
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Check out the big brain on Kaglaaz How'ler!
She still have all her teeth?
Hell no. Thems things are a source of disease, you know.
Imminent domain is to be used for public facilities only, and the imminent domain laws clearly state that. Maradon! fucked around with this message on 06-23-2005 at 12:49 PM.
It seems to me that in todays society a lot of people are to willing to roll over and take anything without speaking up. This is just one aspect of it. The idea of not resisting criminals is another.
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Azizza had this to say about Duck Tales:
I fail to see how being willing to take a stand and protect my land from being taken can be viewed as a redneck attitude.
Depends if "taking a stand" includes a gun or not.
Mod fucked around with this message on 06-23-2005 at 01:00 PM.
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We were all impressed when Azizza wrote:
I don't care if they pay me or not. It should be my choice and my choice alone if I sell my land.
I fail to see how being willing to take a stand and protect my land from being taken can be viewed as a redneck attitude.It seems to me that in todays society a lot of people are to willing to roll over and take anything without speaking up. This is just one aspect of it. The idea of not resisting criminals is another.
You would be part of the problem. See, the idea is that if the community needs something, like a new highway, or a new prison, waterworks, or whatever, that as part of said community, you should be willing to get out of the way, and let such things happen. God, I used a lot of commas there.
Lets use the idea of a new prison. You have a house, and twenty acres. Now, the state wants to take your land, and put a prison there, lets say theres terrain considerations that are perfect for housing a prison. Swamps on one side, river on the other or some such. Makes it harder for criminals to escape. Anyway, your land is PERFECT for a prison. So the state says "Boy, we takin your land" and they give you the fair market value for your property, and you do what?
Pull a gun, and become the first inmate? That would be the lucky outcome. More likely, you would learn first hand that a bullet is much cheaper than them paying for your house. And if you could somehow prevent them from building the prison there, they would simply move somebody ELSE out, and build it anyway. What makes you any more important than the next guy?
Stephen king wrote a book about this shit.. called Roadwork. I'll save you some reading.. The guy failed in a most spectacular manner.
You cant beat the government. And when the government decides that your house is in the way of progress, they will ignore the fact that you are too stubborn to see that. They are acting in the best interest of the community as a whole, and in that scheme of things, you do not matter as much.
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Kaiote had this to say about dark elf butts:
You would be part of the problem. See, the idea is that if the community needs something, like a new highway, or a new prison, waterworks, or whatever, that as part of said community, you should be willing to get out of the way, and let such things happen. God, I used a lot of commas there.Lets use the idea of a new prison. You have a house, and twenty acres. Now, the state wants to take your land, and put a prison there, lets say theres terrain considerations that are perfect for housing a prison. Swamps on one side, river on the other or some such. Makes it harder for criminals to escape. Anyway, your land is PERFECT for a prison. So the state says "Boy, we takin your land" and they give you the fair market value for your property, and you do what?
Pull a gun, and become the first inmate? That would be the lucky outcome. More likely, you would learn first hand that a bullet is much cheaper than them paying for your house. And if you could somehow prevent them from building the prison there, they would simply move somebody ELSE out, and build it anyway. What makes you any more important than the next guy?
Stephen king wrote a book about this shit.. called Roadwork. I'll save you some reading.. The guy failed in a most spectacular manner.
You cant beat the government. And when the government decides that your house is in the way of progress, they will ignore the fact that you are too stubborn to see that. They are acting in the best interest of the community as a whole, and in that scheme of things, you do not matter as much.
A slight gain in efficiency or decrease in cost should not warrant invoking eminent domain, eminent domain should be the last resort in getting something vital or extremely beneficial to the community built where otherwise it could not be. If you own part of the only strip of land capable of holding a proper road to a remote mountain town which could otherwise not be accessed by anything bigger than a passenger car, forcibly buying your land may be preferable to leaving people there stranded if they don't have a car and blocking any economic development that would require goods to go in and out of the place in a truck for example, if your land is unavailable but ideal and another place is less ideal but still managable the prison should be built there.
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Kaiote had this to say about Jimmy Carter:
You would be part of the problem. See, the idea is that if the community needs something, like a new highway, or a new prison, waterworks, or whatever, that as part of said community, you should be willing to get out of the way, and let such things happen. God, I used a lot of commas there.Lets use the idea of a new prison. You have a house, and twenty acres. Now, the state wants to take your land, and put a prison there, lets say theres terrain considerations that are perfect for housing a prison. Swamps on one side, river on the other or some such. Makes it harder for criminals to escape. Anyway, your land is PERFECT for a prison. So the state says "Boy, we takin your land" and they give you the fair market value for your property, and you do what?
Pull a gun, and become the first inmate? That would be the lucky outcome. More likely, you would learn first hand that a bullet is much cheaper than them paying for your house. And if you could somehow prevent them from building the prison there, they would simply move somebody ELSE out, and build it anyway. What makes you any more important than the next guy?
Stephen king wrote a book about this shit.. called Roadwork. I'll save you some reading.. The guy failed in a most spectacular manner.
You cant beat the government. And when the government decides that your house is in the way of progress, they will ignore the fact that you are too stubborn to see that. They are acting in the best interest of the community as a whole, and in that scheme of things, you do not matter as much.
That has to be some of the stupidest thinking I have ever seen. This is America, we don't have Great Father Government breathing down our necks, nor should we. We don't have to worry about being crushed by the government, because, as citizens, we determine who comprises the government. Because of that little fact, the proletariat exerts power on this big bad unstoppable government you're talking about.
Whether you like it or not, individuals have rights--we aren't mere pawns before the greater good of the community. While I will admit, I do believe the greater good of the community far more often outweighs the interest of the individual, the interest of the individual takes priority, and should only be sacrificed by that individual's altruism. So if "the next guy" is willing to give up his land, then good for him. His land, his choice.
Also, I'm not sure if you've noticed or not, but Stephen King isn't exactly the most profound thinker in American history. He's a commercial success, but that doesn't make his every word gold. I would hesitate to call him literary, even. So using a novel of his as proof that you're irrefutably correct is rather, well, refutable.
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Vorbis's account was hax0red to write:
That has to be some of the stupidest thinking I have ever seen. This is America, we don't have Great Father Government breathing down our necks, nor should we. We don't have to worry about being crushed by the government, because, as citizens, we determine who comprises the government. Because of that little fact, the proletariat exerts power on this big bad unstoppable government you're talking about.Whether you like it or not, individuals have rights--we aren't mere pawns before the greater good of the community. While I will admit, I do believe the greater good of the community far more often outweighs the interest of the individual, the interest of the individual takes priority, and should only be sacrificed by that individual's altruism. So if "the next guy" is willing to give up his land, then good for him. His land, his choice.
Also, I'm not sure if you've noticed or not, but Stephen King isn't exactly the most profound thinker in American history. He's a commercial success, but that doesn't make his every word gold. I would hesitate to call him literary, even. So using a novel of his as proof that you're irrefutably correct is rather, well, refutable.
Dude.. open your fucking eyes.. How do you think shit really works? Do you honestly believe that saying "No" is gonna make the men with the paperwork and bulldozers go away? This country is NOT based on individuals. The needs and wants of the one are ALWAYS overshadowed by the needs, wants, or whims of the many.
Imminent Domain is proof of this. The mention of King's book was only to further mock Azziza, not as proof of me being correct.. The LAW proves me correct.
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Kaiote was listening to Cher while typing:
The LAW proves me correct.
Really? The law says that refusing to sell your property merits the death sentence? Because that's what you said.
"No, I don't."
"None at all..."
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A sleep deprived Kaiote stammered:
You would be part of the problem. See, the idea is that if the community needs something, like a new highway, or a new prison, waterworks, or whatever, that as part of said community, you should be willing to get out of the way, and let such things happen. God, I used a lot of commas there.
And this entire thread has nothing to do with that. Laws for public goods have been on the books for a long time.
What we are talking about now, the city government can level your house, to put up a 2 Suite office building in the name of taxable income. This isn't a public good, him losing his house wont benefit him like a new highway or other public commodity would. It's just the city being greedy.
You don't see a problem with this?
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Kaiote spewed forth this undeniable truth:
Dude.. open your fucking eyes.. How do you think shit really works? Do you honestly believe that saying "No" is gonna make the men with the paperwork and bulldozers go away? This country is NOT based on individuals. The needs and wants of the one are ALWAYS overshadowed by the needs, wants, or whims of the many.Imminent Domain is proof of this. The mention of King's book was only to further mock Azziza, not as proof of me being correct.. The LAW proves me correct.
If you're going to argue about something, at least spell it correctly. e-m-i-n-e-n-t domain. With an "e".
Any time a local government makes a claim for eminent domain, it is susceptible to challenge and appeal. Failing that, good old fashion protest works just as well. Sure, saying "no" won't simply make it go away--but refusing to move from your rocking chair on the porch will stop them from bulldozing. I don't know if you've noticed or not, but contractors don't make a habit of running over people with machinery--it tends to be bad for business. Local governments aren't so all-powerful that once they say "we're going to use this" there's no changing it. That simply isn't the way things work.
That's not very culturally sensitive of me, though. For all I know, you may have been born and raised under an authoritarian dictator. Our ways of freedom and individual rights are foreign to you, and hard to grasp. I don't need to open my eyes, you merely need to grow a spine. That shouldn't be too hard, right?
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Azizza stopped beating up furries long enough to write:
It seems to me that in todays society a lot of people are to willing to roll over and take anything without speaking up. This is just one aspect of it. The idea of not resisting criminals is another.
Standing up to criminals in what way?
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Father McKenzie was listening to Cher while typing:
Standing up to criminals in what way?
I believe he is citing an article from a few months back. Where a police department was making public statements saying nothing short of 'dont resist the criminals, let them take what they want' when referring to burglaries.
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Maradon! wrote this stupid crap:
I've heard about this, and it's absolutely atrocious. Using imminent domain to increase tax revenue!? It's a horrendous abuse of power.Imminent domain is to be used for public facilities only, and the imminent domain laws clearly state that.
Wal-Mart and other businesses have used domain laws to displace landowners. Its one thing to be displaced for a public facility, but its entirely different to be displaced for a Wal-Mart.
I used Wal-Mart as an example because they do this quite frenquently, and unlike many other abusesers, they often close down the stores that are built afterwards.
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Kaiote stumbled drunkenly to the keyboard and typed:
Yeah, like there isnt enough hatred and violence..Its not like they go "POOF!, YER HOMELESS!" They pay you for the property they sieze, and you are givin ample time to move.
And I mean no offense at all, but "Over my dead body" makes you sound like the rednecks around here that would say "You aint gettin my 2 acres, and you aint gettin my trailer". They are the US Government.. they can make "Over my dead body" happen.
Yeah exactly, especially on the "payment" part. When we had the farm in NC, my Mom got word they were going to put an extension on a major highway. They'd have to clip part of our back 47 acres for it. We were tickled pink. The government explained that while they would get the land one way or another, they would be paying us market value, which was an insane amount of money at the time.
Unfortunately, the "evil government" didn't follow through.
sigpic courtesy of This Guy, original modified by me
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The logic train ran off the tracks when Reynar said:
I believe he is citing an article from a few months back. Where a police department was making public statements saying nothing short of 'dont resist the criminals, let them take what they want' when referring to burglaries.
That's what we're taught at Burger King. I'm fine with it. 
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Kaiote had this to say about Robocop:
Yeah, like there isnt enough hatred and violence..Its not like they go "POOF!, YER HOMELESS!" They pay you for the property they sieze, and you are givin ample time to move.
And I mean no offense at all, but "Over my dead body" makes you sound like the rednecks around here that would say "You aint gettin my 2 acres, and you aint gettin my trailer". They are the US Government.. they can make "Over my dead body" happen.
you never get what your house is worth. and giving trust to politics like that is a fool's venture.
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Mr. Gainsborough had this to say about the Spice Girls:
That's what we're taught at Burger King. I'm fine with it.
The idea is if people don't fight back that just encourages more robberies because they know they won't be resisted. Same with rape.
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JooJooFlop stopped beating up furries long enough to write:
The idea is if people don't fight back that just encourages more robberies because they know they won't be resisted. Same with rape.
The problem is that not everyone is a brave male in their physical prime armed with a gleaming sword with no obligations to a family who can just throw himself into battle against marauding knights, many people, especially those whom ciminals pick out, are either old, female (not to be sexist but females, ON AVERAGE, have less fighting experience and are physically weaker than men), have their kids with them / in the house or are just too scared to mount an effective defense(hesitating after someone can see that you're about to attack them is a surefire way to get yourself hurt). To all those people the chances that fighting back against some guy who stole their wallet might get them seriously hurt or killed at no risk to the attacker and just giving up the 30 bucks and drivers license might very well save their life. Mod fucked around with this message on 06-23-2005 at 08:33 PM.
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Mod had this to say about (_|_):
The problem is that not everyone is a brave male in their physical prime armed with a gleaming sword with no obligations to a family who can just throw himself into battle against marauding knights, many people, especially those whom ciminals pick out, are either old, female (not to be sexist but females, ON AVERAGE, have less fighting experience and are physically weaker than men), have their kids with them / in the house or are just too scared to mount an effective defense(hesitating after someone can see that you're about to attack them is a surefire way to get yourself hurt). To all those people the chances that fighting back against some guy who stole their wallet might get them seriously hurt or killed at no risk to the attacker and just giving up the 30 bucks and drivers license might very well save their life.
But it's the principle of it, man! PRINCIPLE!!!
I'm just saying that if you look at the history of our country, and the aquisition of other peoples land and property..
"Over my dead body" is a viable option.
If somebody comes to your door, with the proper, legal paperwork, and says "We're takin it" they are pretty much gonna take it. You can be a hard on about shit, chain yourself to a radiator, and try to deny them, but in the end, all you're gonna get out of it is an arrest record.
Spouting off "This is wrong" doesnt make it not happen. As wrong as it may seem to you and your little idealistic, this is a free country mind.. ITS HOW SHIT WORKS.
Its not like you piss and moan every year about paying taxes. Its basically the same thing. You work, you earn money, and the first step in you GETTING any of that money you work for, is to give the government thier cut. You want to buy damned near anything, you pay taxes. And if opening a new wal mart and giving a few pissed off landowners the bums rush off to greener pastures is what it takes to get a couple new cops around town.. then the wal mart shall happen.
The needs and rights of society are far more important than the rights of the individual, I'm sorry if you are deluded enough to think differently.
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Kaiote fell asleep and read just about every paragraph.
Dont get me wrong, I'm not saying I LIKE the idea. and I'm not saying that I wouldnt be pissed if it was me..I'm just saying that if you look at the history of our country, and the aquisition of other peoples land and property..
"Over my dead body" is a viable option.
If somebody comes to your door, with the proper, legal paperwork, and says "We're takin it" they are pretty much gonna take it. You can be a hard on about shit, chain yourself to a radiator, and try to deny them, but in the end, all you're gonna get out of it is an arrest record.
Spouting off "This is wrong" doesnt make it not happen. As wrong as it may seem to you and your little idealistic, this is a free country mind.. ITS HOW SHIT WORKS.
Its not like you piss and moan every year about paying taxes. Its basically the same thing. You work, you earn money, and the first step in you GETTING any of that money you work for, is to give the government thier cut. You want to buy damned near anything, you pay taxes. And if opening a new wal mart and giving a few pissed off landowners the bums rush off to greener pastures is what it takes to get a couple new cops around town.. then the wal mart shall happen.
The needs and rights of society are far more important than the rights of the individual, I'm sorry if you are deluded enough to think differently.
Well, consider this little bit from the Fourteenth Amendment:
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...nor shall any State deprive any person of life, liberty, or property, without due process of law;
Kinda surprised the Supreme Court forgot about that bit.
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Mightion Defensor wrote, obviously thinking too hard:
Kinda surprised the Supreme Court forgot about that bit.
Doesn't say they can't make laws that deprive you of your property for whatever given reason.
things can be amended if needed.
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Peanut butter ass Shaq Talonus booooze lime pole over bench lick:
Wal-Mart and other businesses have used domain laws to displace landowners. Its one thing to be displaced for a public facility, but its entirely different to be displaced for a Wal-Mart.I used Wal-Mart as an example because they do this quite frenquently, and unlike many other abusesers, they often close down the stores that are built afterwards.
Ah, "Nutball Anti-Walmart claim #271"
Uh, no, Wal-Mart doesn't displace anybody. Sorry, only state governments have that power last I checked, not Wal-Mart.
If a state government is going to exercise imminent domain to make room for MY store, I sure as shit wouldn't turn them down on the offer, particularly since even if I did someone else would take them up on it.
Wal-Mart and the other businesses that are built as a result of this are completely blameless, and it's idiotic to suggest that it's somehow their fault.
"They close down the stores afterwards"? HAHA! Wow that really adds up! I bet they make a fucking MINT by building a new store than just arbitrarily closing it! Maradon! fucked around with this message on 06-23-2005 at 10:12 PM.
