Or a paladin talent that made them totally invincible and healed them to full. Oh, wait shit, they already have that one haha Maradon! fucked around with this message on 12-27-2004 at 10:29 AM.
Or that most threads start talking about this.
Or that it takes 1/2 a paladins mana to do this. Or that the opponent cant use a bandage while we're going invuln to get the same effect (while we're invulnerable, so are you) Heavy Silk does 880 over 8 seconds right? Mageweave does like 1340 or something.
Pop one of those, your both at full, and the paladin just used 600 mana.
Say what now?
edit: I do like the chain drain bit, that'd be cool. Elvish Crack Piper fucked around with this message on 12-27-2004 at 10:41 AM.
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This one time, at Elvish Crack Piper camp:
your both at full
Wrong.
Ya'd think that gaining 900+ HP would put you back at full at one of the times a paladin needs to pop an invuln. Elvish Crack Piper fucked around with this message on 12-27-2004 at 10:47 AM.
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Elvish Crack Piper had this to say about Duck Tales:
What?Ya'd think that gaining 900+ HP would put you back at full at one of the times a paladin needs to pop an invuln.
Wrong.
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And I was all like 'Oh yeah?' and Elvish Crack Piper was all like:
Is this going to happen any other way than you coming into a thread where simple, obvious answers to peoples common gripes are answered and you say "wrong" alot without backing your information up then Black says that your wrong and everyone believes him?
Simple, ignorant answers. Black's called me on wrong only a few times and then, he was calling me on exaggerations.
You, however, are just plain wrong. The only people who think nothing's wrong with Paladins are Paladins.
Before you start, don't try to turn this into a personal attack fest.
quote:
Elvish Crack Piper's fortune cookie read:
Ya know, because we dont already have a thread talking about this.
Actually, we don't have a thread about new ability ideas.
Incidentally though, Holy Light casts a shitload faster than a bandage, and bandages have a long recast. Maradon! fucked around with this message on 12-27-2004 at 10:58 AM.
If a paladin is in a position where he needs to use his invuln + heal we can suppose a couple of things.
Paladin is at low health
Paladins opponent is not at low health.
Lets call the hit points 10% 40% between pally and opposition.
The paladin enters divine pro/shield, starts casting heal (exelent time for a kick or counterspell, but whatever) so you use a bandage. Lets say the paladin is completely invulnerable for 10 seconds, list gives you time to completely use the bandage, lets call that 900 HP at level 40. My paladin has 2k HP right now, rather gimpy(for a tank) compared to some, but I dont have very good equipment, and I cant use my better stuff till level 41 anyway.
I digress. The 900 HP healed, more if your a healing class or have access to a higher rank bandage, would heal me from 40% to to 85% or so, and using the mageweave bandage would get me to full.
This then leaves a little time to do whatever, hide behind a rock, start casting a spell with a 6 second timer (whats the worst thing to happen after coming out of an invuln? having a huge mage nuke come at you that you cant stop)
Bandages arent a catch all solution to fighting a paladin. edit: but they are an integral part of any PvP encounter where you anticipate lags in combat without chance of food/drink.
Mara, I was referring to your edit about the paladin invulns, not to the bit about chaining the drains, which I complimented.
Holy light takes mana out of the paladin. Still a very good healing spell.
4-6 holy lights drain a paladin completely of mana, depending on how close he is to his next rank of holy light.
There are solutions. Some classes can kinda kite paladins(impossible to get perfect kite against player charecters, seal of freedom nonwithstanding shamens and druids and mages and warlocks and hunters all ahve ways to this. Was even thinking a warrior might be able to try and kite a paladin using hamstring and guns, but this would probably be very hard). Some classes best option is to run up, hit em alot, run away, and come back in 30 seconds and finish the job. (rogues)
Some classes I have no idea about - priests. Havent given it much thought though.
Maradon, you play a warlock. My worst enemy as a class. Dot, Dot, Dot, I take damage, I invuln, your dots go away and I heal. Then you do it again and I cant stop you.
Then I die. Elvish Crack Piper fucked around with this message on 12-27-2004 at 11:14 AM.
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Check out the big brain on Elvish Crack Piper!
*snip*
Not to argue for or against Paladins, but you supposed a hell of a lot there.
Druids should get spells at higher levels that are used in the cat and bear forms.
Druids should get something besides Rip as a finishing attack for thier cat form.
Warriors should get some long range weapon attacks (Get rid of slam, it sucks. Blizzard should put in like, long range swipe attacks. Like Blade Beam from FFVII, or Tauren Chieftan's Shockwave from War3.)
High level rogues should get Mirror Image.
Druid's Moonfire and Starfire should not be chain castable. Thier root should be chain cast either. Blizzard should lower the mana cost on these spells and put small cooldowns on them. (The whole root and chain Moonfire thing is damn lame, ran into it several times yesterday while PvPing in Elwynn and Westfall. Root + Moonfire + Mages = PAIN.)
Druids should be able to get weak Moonfire/Starfire that is useable in shapeshifts.
Warlock Infernals shouldn't turn on the warlock immediately after its duration wears off, instead it should go wild, and attack any player character that happens to come within its aggro range for a set duration. (Should be used for PvP anyways.)
Warlock's Doomguard summon shouldn't turn on the Warlock, but instead become a stable pet that drains from the Warlocks max HP, until the warlock dies. Warlock can have a Doomguard pet for 1 hour, after that, the Warlock dies from the summon.
I'm sure I'll think of more stuff eventually. 
quote:
Verily, Elvish Crack Piper doth proclaim:
snippage
I'm seeing a trend here. People from Alliance make comments about how paladins aren't that powerful, and Horde makes comments about how they are. I'm suprised that on this forum, not many complain about Shamen.
The thing that is overpowered about a Paladin is that they can take so much damage, and are able to heal themselves.
Shamen are considered overpowered because they are able to adapt to any situation very well.
Obviously, something needs to be done so that Paladins can't take as much damage as they do, but can fight better in other ways. (A little bit more DPS in exchange for some of that tankage.)
Paladins IMO, should lose Blessing of Protection (It's only useful for PvE anyways.), and get some second form of Judgement that causes different effects from Seals. That, OR, they should get a Holy based melee attack (that uses mana) like they did back in beta. Willias fucked around with this message on 12-27-2004 at 11:34 AM.
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Inferno-Spirit got all f'ed up on Angel Dust and wrote:
Not to argue for or against Paladins, but you supposed a hell of a lot there.
Yeah.
Scientifically speaking your only supposed ta have one variable, that being player skill.
I did my best to logically guess when a paladin would use his invulns, and didnt pick a class, though I made remark to a mage once, I wasnt talking about tactic against them.
I like fighting mages, and will like it more when I get a pair of +5 or so resist all rings. Especially when I have the 60 resist to a damage type aura and count as level 72 to the level 60 spellcasting. I'm suprised more people dont complain about that.
We could suppose that they are at different HP, and assign classes, and discuss options back and forth if you'd like. It'd be quite enjoyable I'd think. Assign level's too.
Hell, we could use thottbot and the talent generator on Worldofwar.net and get entire charecters planned out with weak, average, or strong equipment, whether they have potions or engineering items, goblin or gnome, is there a FRIEND nearby.
Thats a fuckton of work though So I'd like to keep my examples pretty simple, to give, not a cut and dry solution, but the guideline so people use the tools blizzard gave them to kill the games "I stand in a single spot and try REALLY hard to not die" class.
Willas, Im fairly sure a few of those idea's with be part of the hero classes that bliz wont have in till the first expansion pack. Cool stuff though.
edit: Paladins can take slightly more damage than an equal level warrior, devotion aura gives an extra 1-5% depending on level and equipment. We are durable because of the heals and the invulns. We are designed that way. We are slow and steady. I like playing a safe class in PvE, in PvP blessing of protection is shit, someones sees that go up, they call to party for the mage to come over and smack me while they wander away, or whatever Elvish Crack Piper fucked around with this message on 12-27-2004 at 11:38 AM.
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Willias had this to say about Cuba:
Warlock Infernals shouldn't turn on the warlock immediately after its duration wears off, instead it should go wild, and attack any player character that happens to come within its aggro range for a set duration. (Should be used for PvP anyways.)Warlock's Doomguard summon shouldn't turn on the Warlock, but instead become a stable pet that drains from the Warlocks max HP, until the warlock dies. Warlock can have a Doomguard pet for 1 hour, after that, the Warlock dies from the summon.
I'm sure I'll think of more stuff eventually.
What would stop a Warlock from summoning the Doomguard, then dismissing him before the timer wore off.. just to summon another one to restart the timer?
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Nae stopped staring at Deedlit long enough to write:
What would stop a Warlock from summoning the Doomguard, then dismissing him before the timer wore off.. just to summon another one to restart the timer?
Pet shouldn't be dismissable and the life drain thing should be an uncurable debuff (like resurrection illness).
Edit: And if the Doomguard dies, the Warlock dies. Blizzard should change the Doomguard to be a combo plate from the lesser pets. A bit anti-caster, high HP + Armor, decent DPS, and can cast some damage/debuff magic.
Armor durability penalty should still apply to dieing because of the Doomguard as well. Willias fucked around with this message on 12-27-2004 at 11:41 AM.
What I'd like to see is a 4th talent tree of generic abilities.
A talent to make your horse run faster.
A talent to make you swim faster.
A talent to make your faction improve faster.
A talent to make you walk faster
Kinda jacked from CoH's travel powers, never played it, heard they were cool.
Moving fast is love, just made level 40 Elvish Crack Piper fucked around with this message on 12-27-2004 at 11:43 AM.
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Willias's fortune cookie read:
Thier root should be chain cast either.
ER, should NOT be chain cast.
Also, Moonfire should not be chain cast, Starfire is still cool since it has such a long cast time. (Blizzard should lower it a bit actually.) Willias fucked around with this message on 12-27-2004 at 11:49 AM.
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Elvish Crack Piper painfully thought these words up:
Kinda nifty, a little easy to abuse what with soulstone.What I'd like to see is a 4th talent tree of generic abilities.
A talent to make your horse run faster.
A talent to make you swim faster.
A talent to make your faction improve faster.
A talent to make you walk faster
Kinda jacked from CoH's travel powers, never played it, heard they were cool.
Moving fast is love, just made level 40
Those talents should be buyable with EXP like in EQ's Alternate Advancement lines. Also included should be various stat improvements, health and mana improvements, regen improvements, damage improvements, etc. Should only be able to work on this talent line 50+.
Another thing that can come by when the expansion back and hero classes are inevitably released.
Damage increase talent? What?
Question, why are there no level 40 2 handed weapons. I have the nice SM quest reward, and the nice SM ravenger, but none in AH at all.
He didnt look like that in WC3 :-/
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Elvish Crack Piper enlisted the help of an infinite number of monkeys to write:
Whaaat?He didnt look like that in WC3 :-/
Actually he did sorta.
Unlike Voidwalkers which looked a shitload cooler in WC3. Maradon! fucked around with this message on 12-27-2004 at 12:07 PM.
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Maradon! said this about your mom:
Actually he did sorta.Unlike Voidwalkers which looked a shitload cooler in WC3.
I know what you mean, Doomwalkers did kinda look like horses/camels in War3. Now in WoW, they look like big mean demons. I have a picture of one from the end of beta events, but I'm too lazy to upload it. 
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Willias wrote this then went back to looking for porn:
Those talents should be buyable with EXP like in EQ's Alternate Advancement lines. Also included should be various stat improvements, health and mana improvements, regen improvements, damage improvements, etc. Should only be able to work on this talent line 50+.
Terrible, terrible, TERRIBLE freaking idea. You do not have arbitrary abilities that require X amount of time each that make you fundamentally better than someone without them. WoW does not need an AA system like EQ where they go "Congratulations on grinding X levels, now go grind these 40 other levels we made up to get these abilities in order to remain on par with everyone else that has them"
Everyone not having those abilities is the same as everyone having those abilities, but everyone not having them means people don't have to go grind exp to get them, and thus the game is far, far more fun. And WoW is built around fun.
Plus having them would get into problems where having them makes certain aspects easier, running away from mobs, kiting etc. Which would make them required, unless Blizzard fixed mobs at certain points to run faster or whatnot to negate them in order to keep things balanced as intended, but then people without the abilities are more screwed if they do not have them when the time comes. Viscious cycle, one best avoided.
That was an April Fools joke.
Some guy on one of the servers powerleved a guy named that and took a screenshot.
No idea where to get it though.
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Vorago stopped beating up furries long enough to write:
Terrible, terrible, TERRIBLE freaking idea. You do not have arbitrary abilities that require X amount of time each that make you fundamentally better than someone without them. WoW does not need an AA system like EQ where they go "Congratulations on grinding X levels, now go grind these 40 other levels we made up to get these abilities in order to remain on par with everyone else that has them"Everyone not having those abilities is the same as everyone having those abilities, but everyone not having them means people don't have to go grind exp to get them, and thus the game is far, far more fun. And WoW is built around fun.
Plus having them would get into problems where having them makes certain aspects easier, running away from mobs, kiting etc. Which would make them required, unless Blizzard fixed mobs at certain points to run faster or whatnot to negate them in order to keep things balanced as intended, but then people without the abilities are more screwed if they do not have them when the time comes. Viscious cycle, one best avoided.
I completely agree, screw the infinite grind that was AA skills.
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The logic train ran off the tracks when Willias said:
Druid's Moonfire and Starfire should not be chain castable. Thier root should be chain cast either. Blizzard should lower the mana cost on these spells and put small cooldowns on them. (The whole root and chain Moonfire thing is damn lame, ran into it several times yesterday while PvPing in Elwynn and Westfall. Root + Moonfire + Mages = PAIN.)
Moonfire is not chain castable. It's the dot spell, instant cast, with a short cooldown. There's absolutely no point to chain casting it in the first place.
Starfire is a 3.5 second casting (at the highest level) DD spell. Already it's underused except for an opening dd against mobs due to the casting time. Why spend almost double the casting time of Wrath to do MAYBE double the damage of it?
Wrath is a 2 second casting (at the highest level) DD spell. There's no cooldown, yes. But why the hell do you want to nerf a Druid's only damage spells to the point of being useless? That'd be like saying to a Mage, "You can only cast a few of your spells every minute. Oh, and your root is now only single target." It'd completely fuck the class.
Sure Druids can shapeshift to other forms. And I often do. But I can either burn almost my entire mana bar killing 1-2 things by root nuking, which is a waste honestly, or save mana and shapeshift to Bear form. It's nice to be able to nuke something down maybe 1/3rd of it's health before it gets to me before I melee it out.
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Vorago had this to say about Cuba:
Terrible, terrible, TERRIBLE freaking idea. You do not have arbitrary abilities that require X amount of time each that make you fundamentally better than someone without them. WoW does not need an AA system like EQ where they go "Congratulations on grinding X levels, now go grind these 40 other levels we made up to get these abilities in order to remain on par with everyone else that has them"Everyone not having those abilities is the same as everyone having those abilities, but everyone not having them means people don't have to go grind exp to get them, and thus the game is far, far more fun. And WoW is built around fun.
Plus having them would get into problems where having them makes certain aspects easier, running away from mobs, kiting etc. Which would make them required, unless Blizzard fixed mobs at certain points to run faster or whatnot to negate them in order to keep things balanced as intended, but then people without the abilities are more screwed if they do not have them when the time comes. Viscious cycle, one best avoided.
The point is, it gives you something else to work on past level 60. Sure, there are raids, you can equip yourself better, and there is currently pointless pvp (this will obvoiusly change), but that is it.
What exactly are you expecting Hero Classes to be?
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Batty wrote this stupid crap:
Moonfire is not chain castable. It's the dot spell, instant cast, with a short cooldown. There's absolutely no point to chain casting it in the first place.Starfire is a 3.5 second casting (at the highest level) DD spell. Already it's underused except for an opening dd against mobs due to the casting time. Why spend almost double the casting time of Wrath to do MAYBE double the damage of it?
Wrath is a 2 second casting (at the highest level) DD spell. There's no cooldown, yes. But why the hell do you want to nerf a Druid's only damage spells to the point of being useless? That'd be like saying to a Mage, "You can only cast a few of your spells every minute. Oh, and your root is now only single target." It'd completely fuck the class.
Sure Druids can shapeshift to other forms. And I often do. But I can either burn almost my entire mana bar killing 1-2 things by root nuking, which is a waste honestly, or save mana and shapeshift to Bear form. It's nice to be able to nuke something down maybe 1/3rd of it's health before it gets to me before I melee it out.
I didn't exactly know what Starfire did. It doesn't need a cooldown, because it takes 3.5 freakin' seconds to cast the spell. Already made a comment on that above. Constantly see people complaining about the spell on forums, I assumed that it was instant cast. Much to my suprise, it wasn't when I looked it up.
Putting a cooldown on Moonfire wouldn't hurt single target fights, but I suppose against multiple mobs it would be an over-nerf. I'll back off there. Also, while there may not be any point to chain casting Moonfire, I haven't fought a druid yet who doesn't chain cast it.
HOWEVER, there is no need to have a chain cast root spell. That makes it easy to gank single targets in PvP. A cooldown timer for a few seconds is all I ask for on that spell.
And I said nothing about Wrath. Wrath is like my Shaman's Lightning Bolt spell, why would I want that to be nerfed on another class? Willias fucked around with this message on 12-27-2004 at 01:39 PM.
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Elvish Crack Piper spewed forth this undeniable truth:
Levels 61-70/80 or a form of AA where you can only choose one branch.
Would be silly to do that. Makes it hard to raise level caps later on when Blizz releases expansions/patches.
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The logic train ran off the tracks when Willias said:
I didn't exactly know what Starfire did. It doesn't need a cooldown, because it takes 3.5 freakin' seconds to cast the spell. Already made a comment on that above. Constantly see people complaining about the spell on forums, I assumed that it was instant cast. Much to my suprise, it wasn't when I looked it up.Putting a cooldown on Moonfire wouldn't hurt single target fights, but I suppose against multiple mobs it would be an over-nerf. I'll back off there. Also, while there may not be any point to chain casting Moonfire, I haven't fought a druid yet who doesn't chain cast it.
HOWEVER, there is no need to have a chain cast root spell. That makes it easy to gank single targets in PvP. A cooldown timer for a few seconds is all I ask for on that spell.
And I said nothing about Wrath. Wrath is like my Shaman's Lightning Bolt spell, why would I want that to be nerfed on another class?
Yeah, I saw the comment about Starfire but I just wanted to clarify.
Druids chaincast Moonfire in PvP? God, what's the point. The mana cost versus the damage is pointless. Unless the dot stacks with itself which I've never noticed. Oh wow, I can get an extra instant 100 or so damage for 200 mana. And there IS a cooldown of sorts on Moonfire. You can't cast it or another spell for another small bit of time, maybe a second or so. Usually this time elapses during the spell cast but for instants you have to wait.
1 on 1 PvP yeah, the root is a bit much. But it's no good beyond 1 target. And chain casting it is about as pointless as chain casting moonfire IMO. All you need to do is cast it maybe twice to make sure it sticks, and then it's a few seconds before it even breaks...the only thing it'd really hurt would be PvE to have a long cooldown.
And yeah, but I've seen other people complain about Wrath before, I just wanted to get a good comparison going. I have nothing against you, but I hate seeing people call for nerfs where there aren't any needed.
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Willias had this to say about Tron:
I'm seeing a trend here. People from Alliance make comments about how paladins aren't that powerful, and Horde makes comments about how they are. I'm suprised that on this forum, not many complain about Shamen.
Paladins are overpowered. I am a Paladin. They're not hugely overpowered. They're not insurmountable gods who stride the field of battle like juggernauts. But they do need some toning.
My experience with Shamen (I thought it was Shaman in the plural still? I can't remember) is very very limited, but I can say that in one on one, two different shamans (for simplicities sake), each one level higher than me (i.e. not much of a difference), destroyed me.
My downfall came in the form of a nuke that also slowed my movement by 50%.
Paladins are horrible if they can't catch up to you and/or hold you. It might be a pain to kill them, but keep in mind they have to stop to heal.
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Lashanna enlisted the help of an infinite number of monkeys to write:
My experience with Shamen (I thought it was Shaman in the plural still? I can't remember)
Shaman is the plural form of Shaman. Shamans is also acceptable, but less so. It isn't an English derived word, so the Sha- is a not a prefix for man.
-Tok Toktuk fucked around with this message on 12-27-2004 at 02:59 PM.
