Of course, this is really only preliminary work, but the rather pitiful argument that gays will raise more fucked up kids on the whole doesn't seem to have any evidence supporting it, at all.
Not that I would expect this to change any minds, but it's just another example of just how irrational those against gay marriage really are.
Under capitalism, man exploits man. Under communism, it's just the opposite. - John Kenneth Galbraith
Didn't Missouri or some state have like a 92% vote for the ban?
quote:
Zair had this to say about Tron:
Yes, but Alan Keyes tells us that the children of gay couples are doomed to eventually commit incest, because they don't know who their real parents and siblings are.
Then adoption should be banned flat out. Because even if you're raised by a mother and father,you'll still never know unless you go digging for it. Not all, if any, information on the birthparents of a child is true. Alot of times, it's made up in hopes to discourage a child to look for thier birthfamily.
I have no clue who my birtmother or father is... I have the same chance of dating say a brother from that woman as anyone raised by a homosexual couple.
quote:
And I was all like 'Oh yeah?' and Trillee was all like:
Then adoption should be banned flat out. Because even if you're raised by a mother and father,you'll still never know unless you go digging for it. Not all, if any, information on the birthparents of a child is true. Alot of times, it's made up in hopes to discourage a child to look for thier birthfamily.I have no clue who my birtmother or father is... I have the same chance of dating say a brother from that woman as anyone raised by a homosexual couple.
Haha, Trill took a sentiment by Alan Keyes seriously.
quote:
JooJooFlop painfully thought these words up:
Haha, Trill took a sentiment by Alan Keyes seriously.
quote:
Reynar still thinks SARS jokes are topical, as evidenced by:
Didn't Missouri or some state have like a 92% vote for the ban?
Mississippi passed it with that percentage, yes. In the other ten states the bans won by a double digit margin at least.
What's also disturbing about the bans is that several of them (like Ohio's, IIRC) contain harsh language which ban civil unions or anything like that. In fact, there is concern that this could be extended to include rights given through private companies to gay couples(pension, insurance coveraged, etc.).
That these passed by such a wide margin seems to indicate that while people may care about defending the religious definition of marriage, they at minimum don't mind and at most actively support denying gay people the very possibility of having the same legal status as straight married couples. The potential intolerance this realization suggests is downright frightening.
Under capitalism, man exploits man. Under communism, it's just the opposite. - John Kenneth Galbraith
It is by caffeine alone I set my mind in motion. It is by the beans of Java the thoughts aquire speed, the teeth acquire stains, the stains become a warning. It is by caffeine alone I set my mind in motion.
quote:
Mr. Parcelan enlisted the help of an infinite number of monkeys to write:
You can't force tolerance.
Surely you'll agree that the primary purpose of democracy is to carry out the will of the majority, while protecting the rights of the minority? While you cannot force people to be tolerant, the least you can do is not have government mandated discrimination.
quote:
Mr. Parcelan had this to say about Tron:
You can't force tolerance.
Nor do you have to pay heed to intolerance.
quote:
Zaza probably says this to all the girls:
Nor do you have to pay heed to intolerance.
If the intolerance is the will of the people, then yes, you do.
quote:
The logic train ran off the tracks when Mr. Parcelan said:
If the intolerance is the will of the people, then yes, you do.
Nope. That's only true in a total democracy, which neither the USA nor any European country is. A representative democracy exists for this very reason, to protect minorities from mob rule.
If you support a true democracy, you essentially consider the Holocaust (I know, Godwin's law lol) and oppression of black people as morally right, as both were the "will of the people".
quote:
How.... Zaza.... uughhhhhh:
Nope. That's only true in a total democracy, which neither the USA nor any European country is. A representative democracy exists for this very reason, to protect minorities from mob rule.If you support a true democracy, you essentially consider the Holocaust (I know, Godwin's law lol) and oppression of black people as morally right, as both were the "will of the people".
Times change.
quote:
Mr. Parcelan said this about your mom:
Times change.
That doesn't even make sense.
Care to elaborate?
quote:
Zaza has sealed the pact
That doesn't even make sense.Care to elaborate?
In a few years, this will be looked back on with scorn and derision, as the oppression of blacks is now.
Years back, oppressing black people was perfectly normal.
quote:
We were all impressed when Mr. Parcelan wrote:
In a few years, this will be looked back on with scorn and derision, as the oppression of blacks is now.Years back, oppressing black people was perfectly normal.
Uh, I'm not sure which point you're arguing now. You're saying you have to accept the will of the people but that the will of the people isn't morally right and will get overturned eventually?
The world in general has gotten much better at protecting minorities and individual thinking, so this entire thing is kinda a step back.
Let me just ask as plainly as possible:
Is it right that the will of the people is allowed to rule with intolerance? Zaza fucked around with this message on 11-16-2004 at 06:27 PM.
quote:
Zaza enlisted the help of an infinite number of monkeys to write:
Is it right that the will of the people is allowed to rule with intolerance?
Depends on the will of the people.
In Missouri, next to no one will be offended at discrimination of gays. No problem there.
In California, gays are welcomed and others are considered minorities. In San Francisco, religion is routinely oppressed. No problem there.
Don't live where you're not wanted.
quote:
Mr. Parcelan had breaking news:
Depends on the will of the people.In Missouri, next to no one will be offended at discrimination of gays. No problem there.
In California, gays are welcomed and others are considered minorities. In San Francisco, religion is routinely oppressed. No problem there.
Don't live where you're not wanted.
That's a totally insane argument and could be used to excuse absolutely anything.
"Don't like legally being forced to wear a big sign that says 'I'm homosexual, don't come near/being forced to display a white cross on your clothes to everyone will know you are a delusional christian.'? Well, then just leave family and friends behind, quit your job, sell your house, and move somewhere else, something for which you might or might not have the funds and means. Have kids who really don't want to move? Well, it's their own fault they have a gay/religious parent."
You didn't answer me, though.
Mob rule good Yes/No? Zaza fucked around with this message on 11-16-2004 at 06:36 PM.
quote:
Zaza had this to say about Captain Planet:
Mob rule good Yes/No?
Not in all cases, but oftentimes inevitable.
quote:
Verily, Arrenn Lightblade doth proclaim:
I've discussed this with a few people (at school and online). Generally speaking, the argument from people my age is "It is wrong because god says it is wrong!" and/or "It is wrong because gays are unnatural." Or even a rather amusing "They are just wrong."
I love the unnatural argument.
Tidal waves are natural. Marriage should be a protected institution between a man and a woman or two tidal waves!
Not to mention the entire jizz of homosexuality actually being pretty common in nature.
quote:
Mr. Parcelan probably should have googled this:
Not in all cases, but oftentimes inevitable.
Such as?
Also, mention a case when it should be okay, and a case when not. Zaza fucked around with this message on 11-16-2004 at 06:44 PM.
quote:
Zaza had this to say about Optimus Prime:
Such as?Also, mention a case when it should be okay, and a case when not.
Consider our very own board here.
Take Somthor. He was a nuisance to the community and routinely raised ire in everyone. Mob rule wanted him gone. He was removed. The mob was happy.
In this day and age, a mob rule that called for the eradication or genocide of a particular race is bad. Actually, it'd be pretty bad in any time, but back then, it was acceptable.
I do not call for the eradication or oppression, just consideration for both sides.
quote:
Zaza wrote, obviously thinking too hard:
I love the unnatural argument.Tidal waves are natural. Marriage should be a protected institution between a man and a woman or two tidal waves!
Not to mention the entire jizz of homosexuality actually being pretty common in nature.
They are all highly amusing to hear. I just started laughing when the guy said "They're wrong 'cause they're wrong!"
quote:
Arrenn Lightblade had this to say about Captain Planet:
Generally speaking, the argument from people my age is "It is wrong because god says it is wrong!"
Which is funny, because anyone who actually reads their friggen Bible will see that the rules of Leviticus simply don't apply since the coming of Jesus. The old covenant was undone by God.
Tell them to look at all of the rules in Leviticus and Deuteronomy and see if they agree with stoning people to death for breaking some of the most silly rules.
quote:
We were all impressed when Mr. Parcelan wrote:
Depends on the will of the people.In Missouri, next to no one will be offended at discrimination of gays. No problem there.
In California, gays are welcomed and others are considered minorities. In San Francisco, religion is routinely oppressed. No problem there.
Don't live where you're not wanted.
So the Taliban era discrimination of women in Afghanistan would be fully justified if only they allowed them to leave the country? A very large part of the population there still supports such laws. What about people that aren't 'wanted' by large parts of the population anywhere, should they just jump off a bridge or something?
The argument is about equal protection before the law, not trying to force bigots into becoming tolerant, Missouri should be allowed to really really hate them queers if it wants to but it should not be allowed to deny them rights provided to straight people based on their sexual orientation, just like it should not be legal to deprive Fred Phleps of due process and lynch him in case he is caught speeding around drunk in a schoolyard in Massatchusets because everyone hates him there and he's kind of an ass anyway.
I'd also like to see how San Francisco law oppresses religion, I very much doubt that any significant part of the population there even dislikes non-fundamentalist religion, let alone tries to oppress it and I doubt even more strongly that discrimination against theists is coded into law in California.
quote:
Mr. Parcelan had this to say about Duck Tales:
Consider our very own board here.Take Somthor. He was a nuisance to the community and routinely raised ire in everyone. Mob rule wanted him gone. He was removed. The mob was happy.
In this day and age, a mob rule that called for the eradication or genocide of a particular race is bad. Actually, it'd be pretty bad in any time, but back then, it was acceptable.
I do not call for the eradication or oppression, just consideration for both sides.
Actually, no. Somthor wasn't removed because of mob rule as I recall, a couple people paid money to have him removed. He was bribed off the boards. While the mob wanted him gone, the government (so to speak) of the board for a long time saw no need for it, so he was allowed to stay.
Noxhil fucked around with this message on 11-16-2004 at 06:59 PM.
Psychology usually shows that environment doesn't always lead to maladjustment. I need to research more.
quote:
The propaganda machine of Mr. Parcelan's junta released this statement:
Depends on the will of the people.In Missouri, next to no one will be offended at discrimination of gays. No problem there.
In California, gays are welcomed and others are considered minorities. In San Francisco, religion is routinely oppressed. No problem there.
Don't live where you're not wanted.
Wow, you've demonstrated such poor reasoning that I'm not sure where to begin.
First of all, there's a distinct difference between "forcing" tolerance and not endorsing discrimination, that is, you don't automatically force tolerance by making discrimination illegal; you just give it no legal weight. Social intolernce still exists, but there's no legal channel for it to rear its ugly head.
Second of all, stop making shit up about liberal states putting religion down. Come up with concrete examples of state-endorsed discrimination against religion or drop it entirely.
Third, your argument about mob rule is spurious at best and completely wrong at worst. Asserting that the will of the people makes something right and, that two diametrically opposed positions are right under different circumstances is just a dressed up version of the Golden Mean fallacy; it's completely unsound reasoning.
Discriminating against gay people hurts only gay people. Not discriminating against them doesn't hurt gay people, but moreover, it doesn't hurt their detractors, as those who are intolerant are free to keep their intolerances. Simply put, the position of the homophobes is the wrong position.
Finally, it is further fallacious reasoning to assume that the will of the people makes something right in all circumstances; this is a classic "Appeal to Common Practice/Belief" fallacy. Your reasoning throughout the thread has a gaping hole in it.
Under capitalism, man exploits man. Under communism, it's just the opposite. - John Kenneth Galbraith
quote:
Reynar had this to say about Robocop:
I dont figure on gay marriage becomming widely accepted for another 20+ years. The older generation of folks still around make up a large portion of voters against it.Didn't Missouri or some state have like a 92% vote for the ban?
Oklahoma. 
quote:
From the book of Mr. Parcelan, chapter 3, verse 16:
If the intolerance is the will of the people, then yes, you do.
Well it's a good thing that interracial marriages are still outlawed then.
quote:
When the babel fish was in place, it was apparent Mr. Parcelan said:
In Missouri, next to no one will be offended at discrimination of gays. No problem there.
You're very, very wrong. I knew alot of gay people when I lived in St Louis. There's a section of town that's a publicly gay district. I imagine everyone in that area was quite offended.
