Discuss.

*God talks with Adam and Eve*

G: I've been thinking, and this is just off the top of my brain here, but I think I should control what happens to you, you know, so I know you'll always be ok.

A: What? But, like, what if I want to go to the beach sometime, but you don't think I should?

E: Yah, I mean, I appreciate you creating us and all, but um I don't know if I like the idea of you being, you know, all in control and stuff.

G: What? But you know I would take care of you...

A: Well, who is to say we can't take care of ourselves? I mean, I'm a grown man-

E: And I'm a grown woman-

A: and we can, you know, figure stuff out. We're fairly intelligent. I know not to pet a bee, cause they hurt and all.

E: And I know what plants are good for eating, so we wouldn't starve.

G: I don't know, I'm not sure you guys really comprehend the whole-

A: Seriously man, it's time to let go ok?

E: You can't hold on to us forever you know

G: What? I just made you! Besides I'm eternal and-

A: WHOA, you are not gonna tell me what to do ALL my life man

E: Yah, me either!

G: Well...if this is what you guys really want I suppose I could let you have free will...

A: YAH! Score one for the people!

E: People 1, The Man 0!

*Adam and Eve highfive*

G: *with a kindly worried look on his face* Just be sure you follow my guidelines ok? They're for your guys protection and I want you to be happy.

A: No worries Pop.

E: We got it all worked out.

*some days later Adam and Eve are standing outside the garden*

A: So like...you meant the RED apples?

Point? Basically you can have free will or you can have God control your life. Call it the price of Free Will. *shrug*

[ 12-23-2003: Message edited by: Ragabash ]

Because God Is infinite and we mere mortals are not, we are unable to grasp the reason for why he lets bad thing's happen?

Because God after creating us left us to be creature's of free will, sitting back and watching much like a parent does after his/her children have grown up and gone.

We'll all find out for sure in about eighty years!

[ 12-23-2003: Message edited by: Chief Durkin ]

quote:

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Star Collective impressed everyone with:
God's a leather-wearing sadist! That's why!

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I'll join THAT religion!

quote:

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Gadanii had this to say about (_|_):
Why does God let bad things happen?

Discuss.

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Why do we let bad things happen?

quote:

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Mightion Defensor wrote, obviously thinking too hard:
Why do we let bad things happen?

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Because we aren't perfect.

quote:

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Ragabash had this to say about Pirotess:
Because we aren't perfect.

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But God is supposed to be perfect and omnipotent.

If he's omnipotent, why doesn't he just make it so we can have free will and bad stuff will never happen anyway?

quote:

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Chief Durkin had this to say about Jimmy Carter:
But God is supposed to be perfect and omnipotent.

If he's omnipotent, why doesn't he just make it so we can have free will and bad stuff will never happen anyway?

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Allowing free will without allowing bad things to happen isn't allowing free will. It's only half the possibilities.

quote:

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Ragabash had this to say about Duck Tales:
Allowing free will without allowing bad things to happen isn't allowing free will. It's only half the possibilities.

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But if you're omnipotent, you can do anything.

You can't say God can't allow free will without preventing bad things from happening, because that would be something God couldn't do, thus violating the definition of omnipotent.

[ 12-23-2003: Message edited by: Chief Durkin ]

quote:

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Chief Durkin had this to say about Robocop:
But if you're omnipotent, you can do anything.

You can't say God can't allow free will without preventing bad things from happening, because that would be something God couldn't do, thus violating the definition of omnipotent.

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Bad things DO happen, ergo, one of the following must be true:

God cannot allow free will while preventing bad things from happening; God is not omnipotent.

-or-

God can allow free will while preventing bad things from happening, but chooses not to; God is not benevolent.

Edit: not to mention I pointed out he could, because he could then argue semantics about "free will"

[ 12-23-2003: Message edited by: Ragabash ]

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Ragabash wrote this stupid crap:
The question wasn't "Why does God let bad things happen if he's omnipotent and/or benevolent?"

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No, the question was "Why does God let bad things happen?"

I presented the only two possible answers:

1) God is not Benevolent

2) God is not Omnipotent

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We were all impressed when Chief Durkin wrote:
No, the question was "Why does God let bad things happen?"

I presented the only two possible answers:

1) God is not Benevolent

2) God is not Omnipotent

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No they aren't. My story man! MY STOOOOOORRYYYYYYY!

It has him benevolent and omnipotent and explains why he lets it happen.

edit: anyway, I'm going to bed. Night all.

[ 12-23-2003: Message edited by: Ragabash ]

quote:

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Chief Durkin had this to say about Jimmy Carter:
But if you're omnipotent, you can do anything.

You can't say God can't allow free will without preventing bad things from happening, because that would be something God couldn't do, thus violating the definition of omnipotent.

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But if this God concept were to interfere with a person's conscious choice to do something 'evil,' this God concept would be violating that person's free will. To stop the 'evil' act without breaching the free will thing would be like making the square circles, and making 3 plus 4 equal 4539.45.

Though, attempting to rationalise aforementioned primitive superstitious contrivance can only lead to one conclusion, and you've already made it.

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How.... Ragabash.... uughhhhhh:
The question wasn't "Why does God let bad things happen if he's omnipotent and/or benevolent?"

Edit: not to mention I pointed out he could, because he could then argue semantics about "free will"

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The exact process by which God would allow free will without allowing bad things to happen doesn't even figure into it, if god IS omnipotent, then by definition, he can allow free will without allowing bad things to happen.

If God is Omnipotent, then he can allow free will without allowing bad things to happen. If he is Omnipotent, then he has chosen not to do this, and in doing so is not Benevolent.

If God is Benevolent, then he can't allow free will without allowing bad things to happen, because if he could then he would because he is Benevolent, and to not do so would be to violate the definition of Benevolence. If there is something god can not do, he is not Omnipotent.

[ 12-23-2003: Message edited by: Chief Durkin ]

To be so would be to cause paradoxes like "Could God make a rock so big even he couldn't lift it?"

Bad things happen because:

Part the first: humans have free will
A) God's a sadistic prick and likes to watch His creations suffer, like a kid frying ants with a magnifying glass(as Maradon said in nicer terms)

B) God can't prevent evil from occuring because he lacks the power or the foresight(again, as Maradon said)

Part the second: we do not have free will
C) Our free will is an illusion and He already knows the outcome of everything, so He is the source of all bad things, as well as all good things. The answer, in this case, would then be that bad things happen because it is God's will.

D) God, being omnipotent and therefore omniscient, not only knows what we're going to do, but also what He's going to do. Therefore, He is unable to alter the course of his actions, because He knows what he's going to do, and thus bad things happen.

Of course, the much simpler explanation is that there is no God and bad things happen because some people are assholes, but that's just downright silly.

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Gadanii wrote this then went back to looking for porn:
Personally, I don't believe in the existance or nonexistance of any higher beings.

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So the other 95% of the world that believe in some higher being must be wrong. All hail you.

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And I was all like 'Oh yeah?' and Yuri- was all like:
So the other 95% of the world that believe in some higher being must be wrong. All hail you.

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He didn't say everyone else was wrong; no need for the caustic wit.

Personally, I lean towards the Buddhist view of God - that natural loving kindness (or "God", or concepts thereof) and peace are a part of all of us. Whether you see God as an outside force or inside, its the idea of perfection people strive for. For all intents and purposes, we ARE God.

Buddhist philosophy talks of life in several parts. Suffering, the cause of suffering, the way to eliminate suffering, and enlightenment. But upon analyzing the specifics of Buddhist psychology, its really quite pragmatic.

First, the cause of suffering. Nothing is permanent. But people strive to hold onto something as eternal, and become distressed when holding onto ideas and objects doesn't yield contentment. People have illusions about how satisying things are, and work so hard to achieve things that in the end become as cloying as anything else.

How does this tie in to bad things happening? We let so many things happen because we try to define life's purpose as the fulfillment of desires that do not last.

Also, when analyzing a situation, before saying "Its bad and therefore is God's fault", or any other figure, think about if the event is really inherently "bad". Now this often gets into a discussion about reincarnation and whatnot. But if someone gets killed, try to think of it like this.

If the person lived their life they way they truly knew was right (NOTE: I don't mean to get into a discussion of right and wrong, so for all intents and purposes right now I will just say that they know in their heart that they were the best person they could be), they shouldn't feel bad about dying.

This isn't to say people should WANT to die; quite the contrary - human life is valuable since the human body is one of the most effective mediums through which kindness and compassion can be spread.

But I ramble. To sum most of it up, in analyzing who is at fault for bad things, we should do two things. First, look to people, who are themselves suffering, for blame. But don't punish them - feel compassion, since they too are suffering as you are, albeit in a different manner. And in the case of events where nobody is to blame, realize that its a natural part of life. Easy to say, I know. But there are ways of minimizing the pain and regret over such "bad things" to the point where there ceases to be unhealthy regret and misery following the events.

Smile at everyone you see. Help those who struggle. When you die, then you can look back and say "I was the best person I could be. I was not perfect, but I tried, and that's what counts." Never leave someone on a bad note. Its a petty list, but just being a kind person can raise a persons ability to cope with the bad things, and then they won't need to blame anyone for the situation.

</end rant>

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And I was all like 'Oh yeah?' and Yuri- was all like:
So the other 95% of the world that believe in some higher being must be wrong. All hail you.

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Hey jackass, how's it goin'?

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Quoth Yuri-:
So the other 95% of the world that believe in some higher being must be wrong. All hail you.

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*Rolls up his sleeves*

So, it's your contention that the truth of a thing is related to the number of people who believe it?

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There was much rejoicing when Bloodsage said this:
*Rolls up his sleeves*

So, it's your contention that the truth of a thing is related to the number of people who believe it?

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Reminds me of the quote "Doing whats popular is not always right, and doing whats right is not always popular."

Kegwen: Not really a jackass but I am doing good

Sage: Because everyone believed the earth was a square back then and the Earth was the center of the universe of course! I'd argue with you but I know I'd lose.

I was rash when I made the caustic remark.. It's just it seems a lot of people join the atheist bandwagon because it's 'hip'. I think that people should spend a long time studying theology before making rash remarks like 'There is no God. I'm the highest being out there.'

quote:

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Channeling the spirit of Sherlock Holmes, Yuri- absently fondled Watson and proclaimed:
Demos: Never said Buddhism was wrong. I actually support it a bit more then Christianity now that I have started studying theology. Buddhism does believe in a superior being or force that drives humanity though so they clump into that 95%.

Kegwen: Not really a jackass but I am doing good

Sage: Because everyone believed the earth was a square back then and the Earth was the center of the universe of course! I'd argue with you but I know I'd lose.

I was rash when I made the caustic remark.. It's just it seems a lot of people join the atheist bandwagon because it's 'hip'. I think that people should spend a long time studying theology before making rash remarks like 'There is no God. I'm the highest being out there.'

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Well, either they're bandwagoning, like you say. . .or atheism is the most intellectually defensible position.

"There is no God" is not a rash remark. As a matter of fact, it's the beginning position of any logical examination of the universe. If the evidence then points to or demands the existence of God, only then should He be added. Occam's Razor, you know.

Spell it with me:

/tigger

L, O, Single-juh, Ick!

/tigger

Either cede my point or go away; "Hahaha, you're wrong but I can't prove it" is just insulting.

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And now, we sprinkle Yuri- liberally with Old Spice!
I was rash when I made the caustic remark.. It's just it seems a lot of people join the atheist bandwagon because it's 'hip'. I think that people should spend a long time studying theology before making rash remarks like 'There is no God. I'm the highest being out there.'

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Ugh, that smacks of the argument that most gay people are only gay because it's trendy.

FYI, most atheists have studied religions extensively and find themselves unconvinced. Sure, I will grant that there are those whose atheism is simply an act of rebellion at first, but even these people are more likely to later discover the rational basis for the atheist position than not.

Now, I can't speak for your personal experience, but of all my RL friends, only one is an atheist. So of, say, twenty people, two(myself included) don't believe in God. Doesn't sound like much of a bandwagon to me.

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A sleep deprived Karnaj stammered:

Now, I can't speak for your personal experience, but of all my RL friends, only one is an atheist. So of, say, twenty people, two(myself included) don't believe in God. Doesn't sound like much of a bandwagon to me.

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I agree, as I know very few true athiests. Most people are on the fence when it comes to religion nowadays, since science can solve a lot of questions about the universe that were not known until recently.

I know what keeps a lot of my friends from being atheists is the fact that theres no good answer to the creation of the universe. An all powerful entity creating it is still at this point more logical then saying a big bang came out of nowhere.

No, I'm not serious. I don't particularly believe in anything, so.

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Reynar screamed this from the crapper:
An all powerful entity creating it is still at this point more logical then saying a big bang came out of nowhere.

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The current cosmology, specifically relativity, holds time and space converge at the Big Bang, I.E. that time began at the Big Bang. Rather than viewing the Big Bang as an event on a timeline, you should instead view it as the point of a cone from which space and time began. Saying that something created the Big Bang implies that there was something before the Big Bang, which, according to the current predictions and evidence, is ruled out by its definition. The universe, quite simply, has existed for all time. It didn't come from anywhere; it's always been there.