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Taeldian had this to say about Captain Planet:
Apparently, you need to fix your profile.

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Thing is, my profile is correct. Well at least it has the correct spelling.

Tsk tsk tsk.

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And I was all like 'Oh yeah?' and Nina was all like:
Comma before and.

Tsk tsk tsk.

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But that would be punctuation...

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Nina's account was hax0red to write:
Comma before and.

Tsk tsk tsk.

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Except that's not incorrect. It can go either way.

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Verily, Taeldian doth proclaim:
Except that's not incorrect. It can go either way.

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It is more accepted today than in the past. However, it is still incorrect. If I can't say ain't without being compared to a hick even though it is in the dictionary and has a correct usage that has been widely accepted, then you can't put a comma before and.

And on a completely unrelated note, I've never looked at our dear Mr. Saege's profile before. Perhaps you think it gives the ladies a reason to IM you, but in the real world putting, "girls" under the interest section is simply another way of saying, "loser who can't get any."

[ 09-05-2003: Message edited by: Cool Hand Luke ]

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Cool Hand Luke had this to say about dark elf butts:
It is more accepted today than in the past. However, it is still incorrect. If I can't say ain't without being compared to a hick even though it is in the dictionary and has a correct usage that has been widely accepted, then you can't put a comma before and.

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I've lost points on papers for not putting a comma before and.

Bastards.

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The logic train ran off the tracks when Black Mage said:
Commas are nessecary and correct when writing lists that have more than two items.

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There should be no comma before the and seperating the last two items.

Here is an example of an incorrect list:

Snoota is fruity, gay, queer, and a homofag.

Here is an example of a correct list:

Black Mage is fruity, gay, queer and a homofag.

[ 09-05-2003: Message edited by: Taeldian ]

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Cool Hand Luke smmaassshhh!
There should be no comma before the and seperating the last two items.

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No, it's not always needed, but it can easily clear up confusions in lists sometimes. Here's an example:

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My name is Snoota, and I like men, children, priests, macaroni and cheese and Sean.

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My name is Snoota, and I like men, children, priests, macaroni and cheese, and Sean.

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Lyinar Ka`Bael smmaassshhh!
It was in all the grammar books, too, so I never thought any different about it.

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Maybe it was... Nothing.

Maybe our books were just old, but I went to a lot of different schools, and it was all taught the same way. Plus a couple were township schools and tended to be able to afford better books and supplies, so I can't believe they all used the exact same book every year I took grammar.

Just one of those weird things I guess.

P.S. The last comma is called the serial comma or the Oxford comma.

[ 09-05-2003: Message edited by: Black Mage ]

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There was much rejoicing when Lyinar Ka`Bael said this:
I've never had a teacher who taught that putting a comma before the and was acceptable. I always got marked for it if I ever did it, so it's been drilled into my head by them all that you shouldn't do it. It was in all the grammar books, too, so I never thought any different about it.

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Well the educational system up north in them thar new-fangled 'skools' is much different than....

Densetsu has fallen asleep! Imagine that...

-- Sam, John, and Joe went to the city to buy ham, eggs, bacon, and cheese.

Try omitting the commas before the second-to-last items.

-- Sam, John and Joe went to the city to buy ham, eggs, bacon and cheese.

Now you're telling Sam that John and Joe wanted bacon & cheese sandwiches. The fact that you're not talking to Sam doesn't matter. By leaving out the commas, you (that is to say, I) have associated John with Joe and bacon with cheese.

Notice that, in the last sentence in the paragraph above this one, I didn't put a comma after 'Joe'. That's because the list has only two items. Two-item lists are allowed to have commas in general writing, but it's considered incorrect in "proper" written grammar.

A good rule of thumb to follow is to listen to yourself read the sentence. If you pause after each item, you probably need a comma after each item. It doesn't always work (Some people who wouldn't pause between 'bacon' and 'cheese' except to say, "Mmmm, bacon."), but it often does.

[edit] Oh the irony!

[ 09-05-2003: Message edited by: Ford Prefect ]

I don't use a comma there...I've never been taught to.

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Ford Prefect's fortune cookie read:

-- Sam, John and Joe went to the city to buy ham, eggs, bacon and cheese.

Now you're telling Sam that John and Joe wanted bacon & cheese sandwiches.

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Only if you were an idiot. Now if you said *a* bacon and cheese, it might be taken as a sandwich. But why the hell would you take "bacon and cheese" as a sandwich? That just doesn't add up.

And since we're talking grammar, assuming that's talking about bacon and cheese sandwiches would be extremely bad grammar, because the set isn't completed when viewed that way.

[ 09-05-2003: Message edited by: Lyinar Ka`Bael ]

Oh, and I didn't mean to drag Deth into it. He just wanted the eggs.

It can be used both ways. You have to take special care to ensure the clarity of the sentence when excluding it... but that has to be done with pretty much every sentence anyway, and anyone can come up with an alternative if they need to.

Different "standard language" books (MLA, AP Stylebook, etc.) will teach it different ways - some emphasizing the need for a comma, some requiring a lack of it. Teachers teach from these books, and most will simply go directly from the rules in the book their school uses rather than spend time explaining the ins and outs of a silly little option for students. It's easier to just make it non-optional, and thus remove the tendency to confuse the matter.

Yeesh. It's a damn comma. There's no need to argue over it.

Depending upon the field and the style guide, standards may differ. MLA requires the comma before "and" in a series, and is the standard in the English and Literature fields.

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Ford Prefect had this to say about Matthew Broderick:
But that's the point. There aren't supposed to be different ways to read them. That's what punctuation does; it narrows down the ways you can read something. You should know, from the moment you read the sentence, that I'm not talking to Sam.

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Context still plays a big part in the way a sentence is read, as well as where emphasis is placed in the sentence. We did an experiment in a class once when we were going over emphasis and context. The teacher had I think it was four or five people volunteer to read a sentence. They were all reading the same sentence, but they read it differently, putting emphasis in different areas, and stressing different parts. They were all looking at the same words, but it translated to them each in a separate way. So it's not as cut and dry as punctuation clearing up all confusion on how you should take a sentence or phrase or such.

I like the Harvard comma, personally, but have to stop using it because many of my colleagues don't and when we draft a document together I need to be sure it's consistent.