What do you think about using "good" worms to fight "bad" worms? [ 08-19-2003: Message edited by: Kahuna Ryuu ]
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This insanity brought to you by Kahuna Ryuu:
http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/articles/A9531-2003Aug18.htmlWhat do you think about using "good" worms to fight "bad" worms?
I can just imagine an underground sport in which coders make worms to battle each other to the death.
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We were all impressed when Sakkra wrote:
I can just imagine an underground sport in which coders make worms to battle each other to the death.
You could've at least credited the other thread, you know. 
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This one time, at Where's Waisz? camp:
http://forums.evercrest.com/cgi-bin/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic&f=1&t=046985You could've at least credited the other thread, you know.
You mean the thread I didn't see or know about because I don't check every thread? That one?
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Sakkra wrote this stupid crap:
You mean the thread I didn't see or know about because I don't check every thread? That one?
Precisely.
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Sakkra stopped staring at Deedlit long enough to write:
I can just imagine an underground sport in which coders make worms to battle each other to the death.
That's exactly why I think that, while very cool, it's not a good idea to start unleashing antiviral viruses onto the net.
sigpic courtesy of This Guy, original modified by me
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Absolut Blindy Model 2000 was programmed to say:
I don't know, after having just about every person i've ever met call me to ask me to fix their damn computer, i think it's a very good idea.
You have no sense of business.
No good worm = much profit to be had from fixing the bad worm.
You start off with hostile viruses/viri, right? Nasty. Download the updates to your antivirus and you're covered.
Antiviral viruses? In the case, they're still using security exploits. People will get lethargic about updating their Windows updates (keep in mind we had people here on the boards who were positively proud of the fact they'd never "had" to run the Windows Update program), assuming that by the law of odds they'll end up getting infected with the "cure". That in itself is bad
This particular virus sends you automatically to the Windows Updater, forces a download of the fix, installs it, then reboots your machine. Very nice. Doesn't ask you if you want it done, just does it for you. Now then...what's to say that all antiviral setups will be as thorough, for one thing. And what about all of us who generally like to be hands on as to what gets installed? Early versions of some Service Packs, DX stuff, etc can be buggy when they first come out. Want that stuff forcibly installed on your computer?
For that matter, if you're going to blindly give someone who you don't even know or have any notion of motives access to that sort of ability on your machine, then why in god's name do you bitch about Microsoft or Sony or anyone else taking a scan of your computer? Why not just empower Windows itself to download, install, and reboot your computer whenever Microsoft feels there's something they want you to have on your computer? At least you know that Bill Gates is out to make money (and possibly conquer the world), unlike the unknown faces of the virus writing community (negative viruses and positive) who generally just seem happy to see your computer get fucked up.
And if people are going to rely on antiviral hackers to protect them, sooner or later someone's going to want to make money off it. Assume the absolute best: That a faceless order of anonymous antiviral hackers make it their business to make viruses that kill other viruses. I guarantee that tech support jobs will dry up, since half the time it's just someone going through the paces with people. Why pay you $25k a year to help 5000 people if we can pay someone half that to help the 2500 people who didn't DL the antiviral virus or worm, or who have concerns not related to viruses messing up their machine?
Likewise, you can't guarantee that an antiviral worm or whatever will hit everyone afflicted, or that if it's too late and they had to reinstall windows or whatever, that they'll get hit with the solution the next time (because let's face it...some people still wouldn't buy Norton or McAffee or Panda, and wouldn't be scrupulous about keeping Windows Update current). They deserve it? Bzzt. Wrong. They pay the same amount as everyone else for computers, internet access, etc. Meaning they've paid for the right to be collectively more stupid than an elitist keyboard jockey who obsessed about computers all throughout their youth or who got an associates or BS in Computer Science. Meaning that you have to protect them and set them on the right path rather than assume the problem will take care of itself, because it won't. And it can seriously fuck up the lives of people who have to casually use computers (for word processing, data collection/collation, records searching, etc) in their daily, money-earning lives.
Apply it to a biological model counterpart, if you like. Virus attacks, or something insidious enters a computer and starts eating up space like a cancer. It's very persuasive to say that an Antiviral Virus or Worm is like viral gene therapy for your computer. It uses all the hot topic words and concepts. A virus to eat a virus! Cool! And it is, in a very "Independence Day, infect the bad guys with a virus that screws with their plans" sort of way.
The problem is that the biological model doesn't match up to the model of computers. If you infect a populace with Bubonic Plague, eventually a natural equilibrium forms. The plague's nastier strains kill off the people they infect before the infection can spread, hardier people start to develop immunities and resistances, we get antibodies, and suddenly the virus or plague or SARS or whatever is cleared up.
Unfortunately, with computers (because we do value our privacy and control) you have to tell them to do something. If humanity had been left to solve it's own problems regarding disease and plague, we would have died off long before we invented computers. We have autonomic responses that computers don't.
Now an antiviral worm program in a closed mainframe (like in a corporation)infected with something nasty might work as a last case scenario. The fact is that there's always a better option than infecting yourself with something else. That's like deliberately giving yourself cancer in the hopes it cures your AIDS (hey if you can make your white blood cells multiply out of control like cancer causes, it would surely counteract the AIDS' killing off of your immune system, right? Wrong. You just created a new, hideous form of leukemia.). You don't know what you're going to get when you randomly expose yourself to a virus.
It's a cute idea, and I can see the logic, but it's a bad trend to start. Even assuming you don't see "hacker wars" with competing viruses (messing with livelihood isn't a game, even if you're trying to help people), it's a baaaaaaaad idea. Great idea, innovative solution. The antiviral worm author would get a B in my programming class, but only a B because there was obviously no thought to the consequences.
sigpic courtesy of This Guy, original modified by me
Should've said something, but I've said it enough
By the way my words were faded
Rather waste some time with you...
The fact is that you're relying on odds rather than getting people to be smart with their computers. You're not solving the problem (OS's all have problems, and the only way to keep your machine safe is to keep your antivirus definitions and Windows Updates current. Right? We get warnings from Microsoft all the time about possible security threats, and they have a handy little download you can install for your computer. We got the warning about what Blaster exploited like a month ago it seems like, but no one took it seriously.
People didn't update their windows updates. They didn't update their antivirus definitions in most cases until they'd already gotten stung. When you have MSBlast, it's too late. MSBlast fucked with your machine, but it's not like it zeroed your drive or something. It mostly made it impossible to get into windows, and tried to spread itself around. There've been some truly horrific computer viruses out there in the past. Get one of those nasty buggers on your machine, and you won't have time to wait around to get infected by an antiviral worm.
Download them off a site? Why should I do that, trusting an unknown 3rd party with questionable morals, ESPECIALLY when I could just update my Norton or McAffee or Panda or whatever? Because it's free? That's like letting some guy off the street treat your health care woes. Sure he might be a beneficent uber-doctor...or he might be a half-wit. Or he might be out to cause a different sort of trouble. Or he might not know what he's doing at all.
In this particular case, I ceded that the antiviral worm was thorough and worked nicely. Assuming it was written by the guy (or guys) who wrote the first, it's a cheap ploy to avoid jail time if they get caught. However, not all virus writers will write antiviral exploits. Not all antiviral writers will be as thorough.
SO! Do you want a war between worm/virus writers to be waged in the battlefield of your computer, or the computers of people you do business with? How about your banking institutions? How about your Internet Service Provider? Amazon.com where you've left your credit card information? Or do you want these people to be smart and keep their shit safely updated so as not to get hit with the heavy stuff to begin with?
As I said before...You have to protect people from themselves the right way in the hopes that they'll learn, because no one wants to give up the freedom to decide what's installed or not installed on their computer. You don't want the FBI or Bill Gates or whoever installing stuff on your machine willy nilly because they feel you might need it. Educate the computer owner, show them why it's important they do it themselves and become even quasi-computer literate, and encourage them to use responsible utilities from reliable sources. Don't count on them catching the antiviral "cure" from somewhere. That really is like giving yourself Cancer to get rid of the AIDS you shouldn't have gotten in the first place if you had used protection.
sigpic courtesy of This Guy, original modified by me
just because I'm feeling cocky, especially since some people in the past have said the dethessay is a dead art form. go go Dethseid
sigpic courtesy of This Guy, original modified by me
Basically, this counter-worm is intended to get all those forgotten computers who have been infected and stop it from spreading. Say, for instance, I have a computer that I only use for storage, or perhaps as a server. I wouldn't access it much, except through my network. The virus is on that computer, constantly spreading itself, and I have absolutely NO CLUE. Now, the counterworm sneaks in the exact same way and fixes it, thus preventing said neglected computer from spreading the virus.
It helps for people that neglect their computer, or just for one reason or another don't bother to update Windows, Anti-Virus software, or whatever. It prevents them from spreading the virus and making the problem worse.
It's definately a good thing.
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Ja'Deth Issar Ka'bael probably says this to all the girls:
Thank you for reading one point I made and ignoring all the others. It makes my job so much easier when all I have to do is repeat myself slowly.
Deth, seriously, I don't know what you expect, but a lot of people don't even read your essays, much less care to reply to the entire thing =\
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Jens had this to say about Pirotess:
Deth, seriously, I don't know what you expect, but a lot of people don't even read your essays, much less care to reply to the entire thing =\
I expect that people who are going to respond to ME are going to read what I said rather than come off like half wits because they were in such a rush to fire things off that they read one paragraph.
Broadly speaking, Jens, I try to think of possible flaws in my arguments and cover them completely before moving on to my next point. That's the point of a "Persuasive" Essay.
sigpic courtesy of This Guy, original modified by me
This is not a 'omg fux micro$oft for making people who can't calculate in binary able to use computers'-rant, but you could expect anyone to be able to klick a few damn icons. It's not hard, klick the picture, kliiiiick the picture....good boy, or at least patch them AFTER they got hit with some worm. The fact that it's easier to make a worm that secures machines than having computer users klick a few fisher price style icons to avoid loss or thefth of data is truely amazing.
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The logic train ran off the tracks when Kegwen said:
I wouldn't mind that, and I'm sure somebody would find a way around it the day after it was released. I wouldn't bother to, though.
I wouldn't, don't want my computer locking up with installing a fix while I have to do something urgently, I don't want to install fixes that are not critical to me and have known issues, (happened with one of the latest winxp fixes) and so on, just because a bunch of people can't just turn on the auto-update and klick the 'yes' button. [ 08-20-2003: Message edited by: Shazorx / Modrakien ]
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Shazorx / Modrakien enlisted the help of an infinite number of monkeys to write:
I wouldn't, don't want my computer locking up with installing a fix while I have to do something urgently, I don't want to install fixes that are not critical to me and have known issues, (happened with one of the latest winxp fixes) and so on, just because a bunch of people can't just turn on the auto-update and klick the 'yes' button.
good point...
