My professor told us that Jihad actually meant "struggle" as in, the inner kind against sin and temptation. My interest is now piqued.
Did the second Caliph really decree that all those who tried to leave Islam should be slain? Is there any truth to the allegation that this same Caliph declared that "Christianity is our enemy and must be annihilated" ?
Finally, what exactly do Muslims believe in besides the Jihad, go directly to paradise thing?
No flames, no anti-religious garbage, just the answers to my questions please. 
quote:
Star Collective wrote, obviously thinking too hard:
Did the second Caliph really decree that all those who tried to leave Islam should be slain? Is there any truth to the allegation that this same Caliph declared that "Christianity is our enemy and must be annihilated" ?
I'm not sure about the caliph, but i do know that they are both in the koran. So either way they believed it to be true. However, most muslims are no longer strict adherants to the koran much as most modern jews don't follow the torah/Old testament( depending on denomination) to the letter, as far as the laws and such. Anyway [ 11-04-2002: Message edited by: Archon ]
I know that any woman who marries into Islam is expected to convert and Islamic women are forbidden to marry outside their faith.
Prophet, make war on the unbelievers and the hypocrites and deal rigorously with them. Hell shall be their home: an evil fate.
Sura 9:73
Fight against such of those to whom the Scriptures were given as believe neither in Allah nor the Last Day, who do not forbid what Allah and His apostle have forbidden and do not embrace the true faith until they pay tribute out of hand and are utterly subdued.
Sura 9:29
They worship their rabbis and their monks and the Messiah, the son of Mary, as gods besides Allah, though they were ordered to serve one God only. There is no God but Him.
Sura 9:30
Mohammed is Allah's apostle. Those who follow him are ruthless to the unbelievers but merciful to one another.
Sura 48:29
The Koran does NOT teach acceptance of christians and jews. It does NOT teach that the jewish and christian god are the same as Allah.
Edit: Many parts paralell the bible, but hold key differences.:
They denied the truth and uttered a monstrous falsehood against Mary. They declared: 'We have put to death the Messiah Jesus the son of Mary, the apostle of Allah.' They did not kill him, nor did they crucify him, but they thought they did.
Those that disagreed about him were in doubt concerning his death, for what they knew about it was sheer conjecture; they were not sure that they had slain him. Allah lifted him up to his presence; He is mighty and wise. There is none among the People of the Book but will believe in him before his death; and on the Day of Resurrection he will be a witness against them.
Sura 4:154-159
Allah is the supreme Plotter. He said: 'Jesus, I am about to cause you to die and lift you up to Me. I shall take you away from the unbelievers and exalt your followers above them till the Day of Resurrection. Then to Me you shall all return and I shall judge your disputes. [ 11-04-2002: Message edited by: Archon ]
Sura 3:55
quote:
Azizza thought this was the Ricky Martin Fan Club Forum and wrote:
Islam is one of the greatest cases of a wonderful religion that has been twisted and corrupted by a few people who want only to further thier own cause.
hey, just like christianity!
</devil's advocet>
quote:
hard technology rock attempted to be funny by writing:
hey, just like christianity!</devil's advocet>
Damn! I was going to use the [strike] method, though. 
hehe *pokes Az'z stomach*
quote:
hard technology rock enlisted the help of an infinite number of monkeys to write:
hey, just like christianity!</devil's advocet>
You know, as a protestant, I kinda resent the fact you lump all the Christian religions into one big group
quote:
This insanity brought to you by Pyscho:
You know, as a protestant, I kinda resent the fact you lump all the Christian religions into one big group
you realize i only said that to make a point?
quote:
Pyscho had this to say about (_|_):
You know, as a protestant, I kinda resent the fact you lump all the Christian religions into one big group
Unfortunatly, at some point in time, someone in some sect of christianity, did twist the religion to beifet themselves.
Weither or not they got caught, and or became known for it is another thing...
quote:
hard technology rock had this to say about (_|_):
hey, just like christianity!</devil's advocet>
That is why I don't go to church. Faith and religion are different things.
quote:
And I was all like 'Oh yeah?' and Azizza was all like:
Faith and religion are different things.
Truer words have ... er not been spoken for a long long time.
[edit: oooo.. Pretty new tag]
[ 11-04-2002: Message edited by: Dr. Pvednes, PhD ]
quote:
Verily, Humble Parcelan doth proclaim:
I think it's spelled Qu'ran.
It can be spelled multiple ways.
quote:
Comrade Snoota had this to say about Punky Brewster:
Any word can be spelled many different ways. Not all of them are correct.
Touché
[ 11-04-2002: Message edited by: Dr. Pvednes, PhD ]
Islam and Christianity are both offshoots of Judaism that went in similar, but different directions.
Judaism, for instance, teaches that we're still waiting for the messiah and that Jesus was a wise rabbi. Christianity teaches that we've met the messiah Jesus, that he's the son of God, and we're waiting for him to come back. Islam teaches that Jesus was a prophet, that Mohammed is the major prophet, and we're still waiting for the next major prophet and the messiah.
Also keep in mind that Islam, much like Christianity, didn't have an easy entry into the world by any stretch of the imagination. In fact both religions were nearly stillborn. The difference is that while Christianity was something of a shadow-cult to be rooted out for a long time, Islam went to war for its survival. Christianity relied heavily on getting its hands on key people in Rome, Islam relied heavily on the pacification of the Middle East.
The whole concept of Islam is Surrender. Surrender to God (Allah) and all will become clear and you won't have to worry about anything. Unfortunately, this noble ideal ("live by the word of God and everything will be fine") got kind of mangled. See, Christians generally believe the Bible is the story as revealed by God. Moslems believe the Qur'an is literally the word of God.
Problem is that the Word of Allah, like the strict edicts of Catholicism, really doesn't leave much room for bending. That was the first of the Islamic heresies (and one that's causing a lot of problems these days as Moslem women get the concept of women's rights and run with it). The rest were very similar to Christianity's factioning, in that there are fifty million different possible ways you can follow God's word. Where Christians have Catholics, Lutherans, Baptists, Episcopalians, etc, Islam has one or two major sects. Unfortunately, Islam never really got out of the concept of priests being all-powerful...which is why in places like Iran, corrupt clerics run the show.
Then you get the really weird sects like the Sufi Moslems. They're where we get the concept of the "Whirling Dervish". They spin round and round and round and round in circles while reciting prayers mentally in the belief it brings them closer to God. The idea is that by shaking the soul slightly loose from the body while whirling around, especially in formation you have to keep track of, while singing the praises of God in your head, your soul is able to reach out and understand Allah's will.
It's no more bizarre, really, than the gnostics of Christianity who hang out in the desert.
The fascinating thing about Islam is that it never really felt threatened by science. Christianity really handled science poorly, declaring anything the Church didn't agree with to be heretical and setting back scientific advancement in Europe by decades if not a century or more. Earth isn't the center of the universe? House arrest for the rest of your life. Micro-organisms? Discredit the work, bury the scientist. Evolution? Man are YOU going to hell. That's why when Europe went into the Crusades, the Moslems had a rudimentary understanding of optics (telescopes), one of the best understandings of math in the world (partially cadged from the Egyptians and Greeks, partially their own work), and the like. Islam decided that if God revealed such wonders to man, then perfecting their uses was for the greater glory and brought you closer to the perfection of God. You think scientists work well when disproving something religion touts as true? Imagine if all the scientists in the world were whipped up into a frenzied fervor working WITH religion. It's only been in recent centuries that it's broken down, largely because of political factioning, arguments on the truth of things, wars, etc.
It's a fascinating way to look at an alternate mirror image of what people in a generally Christian culture grow up with. What's even more fascinating is how close the two religions are to each other, and how much they have in common. You hear how extremists scream "Death to all Christians" but you should hear about some of the Moslem/Hindu conflicts. Mama mia...
sigpic courtesy of This Guy, original modified by me
No one will respect you if you do.
quote:
Humble Parcelan's fortune cookie read:
You had better never be able to express your thoughts in a few sentences.No one will respect you if you do.
*looks at the size of the Old Testament*
So, you're saying that people respect and worship God, because the old guy just can't shut up when he's dictating a memo to us mortals?
That works for me, I guess.
quote:
Humble Parcelan's fortune cookie read:
You had better never be able to express your thoughts in a few sentences.No one will respect you if you do.
Irony
quote:
This one time, at Humble Parcelan camp:
You had better never be able to express your thoughts in a few sentences.No one will respect you if you do.
I should be a politician...win by filibuster.
sigpic courtesy of This Guy, original modified by me
"It's something even the Masters don't reveal about the hidden nature of the universe... the deepest and darkest of all that the Force lets you see... the universe has a sense of humour." Callista, Children of the Jedi
quote:
Ja'Deth Issar Ka'bael said this about your mom:
...
The fascinating thing about Islam is that it never really felt threatened by science. Christianity really handled science poorly, declaring anything the Church didn't agree with to be heretical and setting back scientific advancement in Europe by decades if not a century or more. Earth isn't the center of the universe? House arrest for the rest of your life. Micro-organisms? Discredit the work, bury the scientist. Evolution? Man are YOU going to hell. That's why when Europe went into the Crusades, the Moslems had a rudimentary understanding of optics (telescopes), one of the best understandings of math in the world (partially cadged from the Egyptians and Greeks, partially their own work), and the like. Islam decided that if God revealed such wonders to man, then perfecting their uses was for the greater glory and brought you closer to the perfection of God. You think scientists work well when disproving something religion touts as true? Imagine if all the scientists in the world were whipped up into a frenzied fervor working WITH religion. It's only been in recent centuries that it's broken down, largely because of political factioning, arguments on the truth of things, wars, etc.
...
Stands up to try to challenge the Deth-Essay
You Know, Prior to the enlightenment, Scientists didn't really exist in virtually all Christen societies, Just a whole lot of philosophers. The problem came during and after the reformation and in the enlightenment when the Catholic Church felt threatened to lose their power to the Protestants. Most of the BS the earlier philosopher came up with got incorporated into the church, and then comes some guys saying it taint so, then the church is wrong and they might be wrong about other things. Plus it didn't help that some of the guys saying it taint so were protestant.
Unless my history is bad, pointing out the conflict over The heliocentric theory, then skipping to the Moslems had superior science during Crusades seems like a really bad comparison. Besides your talking a few centuries difference, the Moslems didnt go thorough a dark age like Europe did. Europe like lost all knowledge of the accomplishments of Greece and Rome. But the Islamic countries didn't lose said knowledge, they had a better base to go upon, hell all our knowledge of Greece and Rome come from Islamic libraries.
And if you want to see a spiffy religion and science meeting concepts, read up on what a lot of the Deist/Theists, or look at some of the stuff that Newton or any of enlightenment/scientific revolution thinkers thought about how science related to God, many believed Science demonstrated God's work, I remember something from Psalms getting touted around, goes like this "The heavens Declare the Glory of God".
Islam, on the other hand, never had that sort of problem. They suffered when the Roman Empire fell, yes, and they had problems of their own as they rose to power, but they didn't make matters worse by clamping down on the belief in science.
They had people using optics (primitive telescopes) during the Crusades, at least a century and close to two before Europe got a clue. Saracen Islamic books on mathematics and basic science were practically the textbooks that the Rennaissance Men drew upon. And EVEN THEN the Church was heavily supressing dangerous beliefs. Do you realize that it wasn't until the current Pope that the Church ceded the fact and expressed regret for locking a man in house arrest for doing that work?
I stand by what I said. The Moslems didn't have their head up their ass about things early on.
sigpic courtesy of This Guy, original modified by me
The Church's problem with the "scientists" Ja'Deth, as I believe Psycho has stated, is that they tried to use their discoveries in the physical world to "edit" the bible.
Correct me if I'm wrong, but I fail to see how one can make a logical jump from the earth orbiting the sun to large and unrelated sections of the bible being completely and totally wrong. 
If he had stuck with just the Copernican theory (or Heliocentric theory if you prefer), there wouldn't have been any trouble.
The declaration of the printing press to be a work of Satan was pretty silly though.
The theory of evolution is just that, a theory A highly plausible one, to be considered in intricate detail certainly, but still a theory.
The Catholic Church is an instrument of God, but imperfect, due to its human components. Everything in this world is imperfect. The Church has made mistakes, but we have learned from them and moved on.
Hell, we've even started putting our priests through regular psychological tests to make sure there aren't any "rape" tendencies or characteristics, and that was twenty years ago, which is why most, and thats assuming not all, of these accusations against the Church are anywhere from 20 - 60 years old, and thats not even discounting the people doing it for money.
Granted some of the accusations are valid, but some are not, and thats pretty much where the Church mishandled things, just buying off all comers instead of taking them to court and having them revealed as frauds.
I suspect, with the Church's current rather compassionate view for all and sundry, that they probably realized some of them were liars and just gave the money anyway.
The media is no help at all and if I didn't know better I'd say they had it in for Catholics. 
My sincere apologies for the length of the post, but I would like to thank all of you once again for indulging my curiosity.
