Apparently, the US government is trying it's damnedest to get US military personnel totaly immunity from prosecution at the International Court in The Hague, even going as far as to say that they can invade the Netherlands to get their people out. Gotta love huge nations throwing their diplomatical weight around.
The original article can be found here but it is in Dutch. I've proved a partial translation here.
I provided the original so anyone who doubts my translation can get their own done.
Discuss.
{edit: ubbcode2win...} [ 06-12-2002: Message edited by: MadCat ]
sigpic courtesy of This Guy, original modified by me
quote:
Ja'Deth Issar Ka'bael enlisted the help of an infinite number of monkeys to write:
Get them free from prosecution for what?
Hardly free from prosecution - anything a soldier could do to warrant an International Court trial would probably land him a Court Martial as well.
This article smacks of overreaction.
[ 06-12-2002: Message edited by: Modrakien ]
quote:
Ja'Deth Issar Ka'bael had this to say about John Romero:
Get them free from prosecution for what?
war crimes; along the lines of, say, some soldier shoots some innocent civilians and gets to go to international court for it, the US soldiers can be "rescued".
quote:
Modrakien Model 2000 was programmed to say:
Hm, do you know any german or english source that has some info about this? I wasn't able to find anything about this in any of the papers I read (print and online).
I've tried the usual US papers I read online but none have anything on this; since my German skills are rusty at best I haven't tried the German ones either 
I'll see what I can dig up tomorrow when I've got some time to sit down and search.
quote:
MadCat had this to say about Optimus Prime:
war crimes; along the lines of, say, some soldier shoots some innocent civilians and gets to go to international court for it, the US soldiers can be "rescued".
"Rescued", and delivered straight to his court martial.
Normally, it is hnadled by the Hague, but in this case, it goes to US court martial, and probably given a presidential pardon.
It makes the us not accountable to anyone.
No, Really. Bite me.
What irks me is that the agreement the US govt. is trying to push down everyone's throat includes the right that the US govt. may use whatever force is deemed necessary, which boils down to "yeah we'll invade the country, get our guys, and bone out".
It smacks of Nazi-ism to be honest.
quote:
The_Mac had this to say about Cuba:
how about if a general/president orders the destruction of a village, and the soldiers do it.
In that instance, soldiers are not held accountable, thier superiors are, and amends are made through diplomatic channels.
Basically, if America ever did shit like that, it would be violating not only international war crime law, but America's own ideals.
If the American government ever started making those kinds of judgements routinely, by all means, nuke the fuck out of us. I'll help. I'm loyal to freedom and the guiding principles of America. I am not loyal to American politicians.
quote:
This insanity brought to you by MadCat:
It smacks of Nazi-ism to be honest.
No using my word!
This is why the issue of establishing an independent, international court to handle war criminals came up, to have an international institution, less biased by regional loyalties and patriotism, enforce international law.
I see no reason whatsoever why any country should be exempt from the standard procedures of handling criminals of war. You don't have US states enforcing Federal law either.
While there are undoubtedly quite a few conspiracy theorist scenerios where this could intervene in the way of accountability and punishment, its more likely that this is aimed at protecting US citizens by trying them in a controlled environment that is as equitable as possible.
Who knows what goes on in dem furrin countries.
Joking aside, I don't know much about The Hague. Anyone want to give me a 3 minute course?
The US pulled out of the process, because those setting up the court didn't bother putting any checks or balances on its power. It's accountable to no one, in other words.
It's a pretty ridiculous notion, if you look at it, and it's a good thing the US has chosen not to play. And, yes, if they decide to kidnap and try any of our people, we have the right to invade their sorry asses to get them back.
It's always worked that way. Welcome to international relations, people.
--Satan, quoted by John Milton
quote:
When the babel fish was in place, it was apparent MadCat said:
Well, my view on this is as follows: If the US wants to court-martial their own guys, hey, I'm cool with that. I'm even fine with it if they request they be extradited for court martial instead of an international court trial.What irks me is that the agreement the US govt. is trying to push down everyone's throat includes the right that the US govt. may use whatever force is deemed necessary, which boils down to "yeah we'll invade the country, get our guys, and bone out".
It smacks of Nazi-ism to be honest.
I thought it was you who objected so strongly in another thread to bandying about Nazi references without proof.
So make your case, fuckchop--show us how the US is like Nazi Germany in any meaningful way.
Does it not bother you that you so rarely seem to have the first clue what the fuck you're talking about when you start condemning other countries?
--Satan, quoted by John Milton
quote:
Maradön² painfully thought these words up:
No using my word!
smack. smack smack smack smackity smack.
quote:
Piper had this to say about the Spice Girls:
This is to prevent soldiers from being tried in foreign judicial systems. American soldiers - American justice.While there are undoubtedly quite a few conspiracy theorist scenerios where this could intervene in the way of accountability and punishment, its more likely that this is aimed at protecting US citizens by trying them in a controlled environment that is as equitable as possible.
Who knows what goes on in dem furrin countries.
Joking aside, I don't know much about The Hague. Anyone want to give me a 3 minute course?
Well in essence I don't mind if US soldiers get their court martial in the US, like I said, what irks me is the fact that they're putting in clauses that are rather over the top according to most of Europe.
3 minute course on The Hague. Capital of the Netherlands, has about 2 million residents. Home of 3 universities. Home of insanely expensive housing too. Home of good bars. Good restaurants. Shitty public transport. Home of all embassies and consulates, except you yanks had to be different and park your consulate in The Hague but your embassy in Amsterdam. Umm, what else is there about The Hague - home of some good artists! yeah. Umm.. that's about it.
quote:
Bloodsage had this to say about Captain Planet:
The International Court at The Hague has no jurisdiction over US forces. It's that simple.The US pulled out of the process, because those setting up the court didn't bother putting any checks or balances on its power. It's accountable to no one, in other words.
It's a pretty ridiculous notion, if you look at it, and it's a good thing the US has chosen not to play. And, yes, if they decide to kidnap and try any of our people, we have the right to invade their sorry asses to get them back.
It's always worked that way. Welcome to international relations, people.
well, i said it wasn't gonna reply to you anymore but i can't resist
International Court. Jurisdiction implied.
And it's not international relations if the US is actively pushing countries to sign that agreement. I'm pretty sure you wouldn't want the US to sign an agreement that would allow any nation to invade the US to get their people out.
That's just being the bully on the block.
quote:
MadCat had this to say about Robocop:
3 minute course on The Hague....
More specifically, details on the international courtwatchamabopper.
quote:
MadCat stumbled drunkenly to the keyboard and typed:
well, i said it wasn't gonna reply to you anymore but i can't resistInternational Court. Jurisdiction implied.
I'm not sure jurisdiction can be just implied when dealing with the lives of human people. You can't give people "sorta" power and expect them to uphold your ideals without limits and liabilities.
quote:
Nobody really understood why Bloodsage wrote:
I thought it was you who objected so strongly in another thread to bandying about Nazi references without proof.So make your case, fuckchop--show us how the US is like Nazi Germany in any meaningful way.
Does it not bother you that you so rarely seem to have the first clue what the fuck you're talking about when you start condemning other countries?
Sage, shut up you condescending lil bitch and stop calling me fuckchop. There. Just to get the personal attacks out of the way.
I do have a clue about what I'm talking about, I'm condemning the US for having the GUTS to even dare think of throwing it's weight around! "Yeah, we'll invade your ass to get our people out of a court that's RECOGNISED BY THE WORLD" .. that's being elitist. It's insane, the US doesn't want to be a nation anymore, it wants to rule the fricking world. Hitler wanted that too, only he went about it in a fucked up way. The US is trying to go about it in a different way, but still fucked up.
So it's quite similar to Nazi-ism in that aspect.
The US scrupulously follows the laws of war, but this process is so open to abuse by those whose agendas differ, or who want to outlaw all war, no matter how it is fought, that it would be insane to sign on. The US takes these things incredibly serously, and any US soldier found comitting crimes will be swiftly dealt with, or even turned over to the offending country, if it's possible to get a fair trial there.
We've been doing that for years, anyway.
--Satan, quoted by John Milton
quote:
MadCat had this to say about Robocop:
Sage, shut up you condescending lil bitch and stop calling me fuckchop. There. Just to get the personal attacks out of the way.I do have a clue about what I'm talking about, I'm condemning the US for having the GUTS to even dare think of throwing it's weight around! "Yeah, we'll invade your ass to get our people out of a court that's RECOGNISED BY THE WORLD" .. that's being elitist. It's insane, the US doesn't want to be a nation anymore, it wants to rule the fricking world. Hitler wanted that too, only he went about it in a fucked up way. The US is trying to go about it in a different way, but still fucked up.
So it's quite similar to Nazi-ism in that aspect.
You: go back to school. Try to learn something this time.
You haven't the faintest fucking idea what you're talking about, either with respect to international relations or to US policy.
The US is in no way similar to Nazi Germany. Sorry if that breaks your little socialist, pie-in-the-sky, unrealistic heart.
Warfare has been the tool of states for, oh forever, asshole. You think Germany is the only nation ever to use force to back its policies? Take a look at your own colonial history, moron, and you might learn about who some of the bad guys in history really were.
Threatening to defend its citizens with force, or to use force to prevent an international kangaroo court without jurisdiction from incarcerating its citizens has nothing to do with Nazism.
Funny how you objected to that term used in jest earlier, but you feel able to use it with much less evidence or connection. Such ridiculous mental gymnastics must go along with having your very own stupid logic that doesn't have to conform to the normal variety, huh?
That court has no jurisdiction over US forces. Trying to take it ivolves violating US sovereignty--which is an act of war in itself.
Learn what the fuck words mean before you start throwing them about. Everything you don't like doesn't fall under the general heading "Nazi-like," asshole.
--Satan, quoted by John Milton
quote:
Bloodsage stumbled drunkenly to the keyboard and typed:
The International Court at The Hague has no jurisdiction over US forces. It's that simple.The US pulled out of the process, because those setting up the court didn't bother putting any checks or balances on its power. It's accountable to no one, in other words.
It's a pretty ridiculous notion, if you look at it, and it's a good thing the US has chosen not to play. And, yes, if they decide to kidnap and try any of our people, we have the right to invade their sorry asses to get them back.
It's always worked that way. Welcome to international relations, people.
I can see that, however, if the US does not consider this court to be a valid judicial institution, why would it help bring criminals before it:
Participation of U.S. Forces in Apprehension of an Indicted War Criminal
quote:
Piper had this to say about Captain Planet:
I'm not sure jurisdiction can be just implied when dealing with the lives of human people. You can't give people "sorta" power and expect them to uphold your ideals without limits and liabilities.
Well, the international court isn't run by us Dutch folks, it just happens to be located here - the actual judges and such are from all nations that are part of the UN, and the UN is the controlling body.
I think it was established some time after WW2 to put the war criminals on trial, so I guess the location was based purely on convenience.
As I stated before; I don't mind if the US wants to court-martial their own folks. It's just the absurd notion that they can invade another country just to get their people out that irks me beyond belief.
This seems, at least from my point of view, to be a logical and rational course of action. Not only is one rescuing one's resources, but one is also scoring political points within one's country by acting as "the good guy."
quote:
<MadCat> granted I'm not really in the best place to ask since most of my flames with 'sage were on a subject that I deliberately chose to piss him off
<MadCat> with no real chance of winning anyway
<MadCat> heh
<MadCat> just make a post "the USA sux0rz" and you'll have his full attention again
<MadCat> it worked for me on 2 occasions :P
quote:
Intentionally trolling or spamming will not be tolerated and will be dealt with, with extreme prejudice.
troll2win!
quote:
Lady Snoota had this to say about dark elf butts:
troll2win!
Littlewhinyschoolboyscoringbrowniepointswithteacher2win ..
Hey Snoota? Next time you log something I say and post it, I'll keep your ass offline for a few weeks. You don't want to fuck with me in that way
And whiny school boy? I've been out of school for almost four years. You confoosel me.
quote:
This insanity brought to you by MadCat:
Hey Snoota? Next time you log something I say and post it, I'll keep your ass offline for a few weeks. You don't want to fuck with me in that way
quote:
Anything that can be used in software piracy or other illegal software activities will result in a ban. Same goes for abusing programs like mailbombers, forum and usenet flooders, and email harvesting bots. This goes for actual links to offending material, bragging about offending material, and offering offending services.
Snoota2Win?
I vote ban.
Since this is a habit, and not a one-time occurance.
--Satan, quoted by John Milton
quote:
MadCat's unholy Backstreet Boys obsession manifested in:
Hey Snoota? Next time you log something I say and post it, I'll keep your ass offline for a few weeks. You don't want to fuck with me in that way
LEET AIM HAX0R MODE
[ 06-12-2002: Message edited by: Kloie ]
quote:
Bloodsage stopped beating up furries long enough to write:
It doesn't matter, since it's obvious you're the lowest form of troll, anyway, MadCat.I vote ban.
Since this is a habit, and not a one-time occurance.
Fine, have me banned. Have me blacklisted. Do you really think I care if that happens? Not really.
It's also not a habit, but I must admit I have a tendency to troll people that are susceptible to it; like you are.
But sure, have me banned, and then do your little hollow victory dance if you want
I'll leave it to Drys and the mods to figure this one out.
TTFN
BLACKLIST MADCAT. THANK YOU JESUS.
quote:
MadCat stopped staring at Deedlit long enough to write:
Fine, have me banned. Have me blacklisted. Do you really think I care if that happens? Not really.
Why does everyone say that?
It doesn't really impress anybody. :D [ 06-12-2002: Message edited by: Suddar Williams ]
