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Sometimes I worry that I'm one of the only people that think pretty much constantly of how black holes work and all, but I want someones serious opinion on this.Most of the people think of black holes as being 2 or 3 dimensional things, but maybe both answers are wrong. Maybe the reason their is such question surrounding them is because they can't be explained in terms a person set to think in 3 dimensions can understand. I believe that the possibility of there being universes outside ours and that there is an underlying structure to how those universes overlay each other in more dimensions than the human mind can handle.
I might be outspoken in these ideas, or they might have already been thought up. But don't care right now and anyone with a serious opinion I'd like to here from.
Also, try to introduce yourself. You're addressing a community of posters, after all 
Take the second, square it. You reach the third.
Thoes are simple and easy to understand. What happens when you square the third dimension?
Also the cliche phrase of "Black holes are where God devided by zero."
[ 03-04-2002: Message edited by: Palou ]
Palou Sabaco 
Hazes the n00b while thinking of his own opinion.
I have no doubt about alternate universes and dimensions. However, we can comprehend black holes to some degree. Not every facet of 'em, but a fair amount.
In my opinion (Which is in no way to be confused with scientific fact that I'm unfamiliar with), black holes are primarily a part of this universe.
Their influence may expand into others, but we've seen that they exist here and have a direct impact upon this universe. Multi-dimensional objects have yet to be proven as existing, I believe.
Dangit, normally I love talking about things like black holes, but my mind's drawing a blank right now...
In fact, it's infinitely small and infinitely dense.
You should read up on the topic a bit more. Particularly the bit about the einstien-rosenberg bridge, considering your argument that you can't exit a black hole is that "it's spherical" 
Palou Sabaco You've got the wrong idea entirely about black holes. Look up Hawkings' book, "A Brief History of the Universe". Good read, and on top of that you'll see how your statement is a little comical to me
Palou Sabaco quote:
Palou thought this was the Ricky Martin Fan Club Forum and wrote:
I wouldnt be one to attempt to go through one. You'd just hit the dense center and be crushed into dust.
... Star Trek people, sheesh
Heh heh, damn right about that. There's no portal at the center of a black hole, and if there is, then there's no way for anyone to reach one due to the forces involved.
However, with the right calculations involved, I can see the use of a black hole as a means of transportation... just by entering it's pull at a certain angle and certain speed would slingshoot you out of it at a rate of speed that's almost unfathomable... And would probably tear up whatever tried it... hmmm... I need to think more before I type...
EDIT: -_- Next time, remember to quote just the part you want to quote... [ 03-04-2002: Message edited by: Mooj ]
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Palou had this to say about dark elf butts:
Yeah yeah, go read Hitchhiker's Guide to the Galaxy... FULL of scientific information <Sarcasm if you couldnt tell>
Hey, can't say I didn't try, you seem determined to remain ignorant though 
Palou Sabaco 
What the fuck have you been smoking, eh?
Palou Sabaco In any case Palou, trying to stamp out the theories of renowned black hole theorists like Einstien, Hawkings, and Rosenberg with utterly unsupported "because I said so" logic tends to be rather unconvincing.
Maybe you can cite some recent studies that suggest black holes are no more interesting than superdense baseballs? Though I doubt you'll find one outside a seventh-grade science text book. [ 03-04-2002: Message edited by: Maradön? ]
IMO: a black hole is a hole in the space time fabric it goes to infinite smallness, a place of no entropy but was created by entropy, etc and etc.
/me hands the newbie a anti parc butter knife
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Dark_Knight had this to say about Robocop:
I think that black holes are created by the government, they are always thinking stupid stuff up to freak us out like the AID's epidemic............
Been hitting the bong too long, eh?
Yes, that's right, hot live sex!
Ferrel!
Palou Sabaco 
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Dark_Knight had this to say about Duck Tales:
I think that black holes are created by the government, they are always thinking stupid stuff up to freak us out like the AID's epidemic............
So what you're trying to say is that you're just a complete moron?
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The Otaku Penguin had this to say about Duck Tales:
What if there IS a portal in a black hole? It can never, ever be proven because no one would have the guts to go in
And because we'd get crushed in the attempt.
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What is a black hole? by T_S_M
Loosely speaking, a black hole is a region of goddamn space that has so much fucking mass concentrated in it that there is no way for a shit slinging goddamn nearby object to escape its motherfucking gravitational pull. Since our best theory of gravity at the moment is Einstein's general theory of relativity, we have to fucking delve into some results of this theory to understand black holes in detail, but let's fucking start off slow, for you fucking gimps out there, by thinking about gravity under fairly simple circumstances can make your mothers cunt swell up like a big wad of yeasty goodness.
Suppose that you are standing on the surface of a goddamn planet like some fucking dumbass. You throw a fucking rock straight the fuck up into the air. Assuming you don't throw it too hard like a goddamn asshole, it will rise for a while, but eventually the acceleration due to the planet's gravity will make it start to fall the fuck down again. If you threw the rock hard enough, though, you could make it escape the planet's gravity entirely. It would keep on rising for fucking forever. The speed with which you need to throw the rock in order that it just barely escapes the planet's gravity is called the "escape velocity." As you would fucking expect,DUH! the escape velocity depends on the mass of the planet: if the planet is extremely massive, then its gravity is very strong, and the escape velocity is high. A lighter planet would have a smaller escape velocity. The escape velocity also depends on how far you are from the planet's center: the closer you are, the higher the escape velocity. The Earth's escape velocity is 11.2 kilometers per second (about 25,000 m.p.h.), while the Moon's is only 2.4 kilometers per second (about 5300 m.p.h.).Now imagine an object with such an enormous goddamn oncentration of mass in such a small radius that its escape velocity was greater than the velocity of light. Then, since nothing can go faster than light, nothing can escape the object's gravitational field. Even a beam of light would be pulled back by gravity and would be unable to escape. Well goddamn.
The idea of a mass concentration so fucking dense, like your mom, that even light would be trapped goes all the way back to Laplace in the 18th century. Almost immediately after Einstein developed general relativity, Karl Schwarzschild discovered a mathematical solution to the equations of the theory that described such an object, by lighting his fucking balls on fire. NO SHIT! It was only much later, with the work of such people as Oppenheimer, Volkoff, and Snyder in the 1930's, that people thought seriously about the possibility that such objects might actually exist in the Universe. (Yes, this is the same Oppenheimer who ran the Manhattan Project,asshole, EARN some history, okay?) These researchers showed that when a sufficiently massive star runs out of fuel, it is unable to support itself against its own gravitational pull, and it should collapse into a black hole. HOW DO YOU LIKE THOSE APPLES? Slappy.
In general relativity, gravity is a spooky manifestation of the curvature of spacetime, like in Ghostbusters but it can kill you. Massive objects distort space and time, like your moms fat ass distorts the fucking couch cushions, so that the usual rules of geometry don't fucking apply anymore. Near a black hole, this distortion of space is extremely severe and causes black holes to have some very strange properties. In particular, a black hole has something called an 'event horizon.' No NOT the SHITTY movie. This is a spherical surface that marks the boundary of the black hole. You can pass in through the horizon, but you can't get back out. In fact, once you've crossed the horizon, you're doomed to move inexorably closer and closer to the 'singularity' at the center of the black hole.
You can think of the horizon as the place where the escape velocity equals the velocity of light. Outside of the horizon, the escape velocity is less than the speed of light, so if you fire your type R rockets hard enough, you can give yourself enough energy to get away, and live to be cool in your Type R shit box anotherday. But if you find yourself inside the horizon, then no matter how powerful your shitty Type R rockets are, you can't escape. EVEN if your rocket was Type R, you'd still be fucked, ricey. Havent you been paying attention?
The horizon has some very strange geometrical properties. To an observer who is sitting still somewhere far away from the black hole, the horizon seems to be a nice, static, unmoving spherical surface. But once you get close to the horizon, you realize that it has a very large velocity. In fact, it is moving outward at the speed of light! That explains why it is so fucking easy to cross the goddamn horizon in the inward direction, but fucking impossible to get the fuck back out. Since the horizon is moving out at the speed of light, in order to escape back across it, you would have to travel faster than light. You can't go faster than light, and so you can't escape from the black hole.
(If all of this sounds very strange, don't worry. It is strange. The horizon is in a certain sense sitting still, but in another sense it is flying out at the speed of light. It's a bit like Alice in "Through the Looking-Glass": she has to run as fast as she can just to stay in one place.)
Once you're inside of the horizon, spacetime is distorted so much that the coordinates describing radial distance and time switch roles. That is, "r",as in R-eeverderchee, the coordinate that describes how far away you are from the center, is a timelike coordinate, and "t" is a spacelike one. One consequence of this is that you can't stop yourself from moving to smaller and smaller values of r, just as under ordinary circumstances you can't avoid moving towards the future (that is, towards larger and larger values of t). Eventually, you're bound to hit the singularity at r = 0. You might try to avoid it by firing your rockets, but it's fucking futile, have you NOT been comprehending this, shit ape?: no matter which goddamn direction you try to fucking run, you can't avoid your future. Trying to avoid the center of a black hole once you've crossed the horizon is just like trying to avoid next Thursday, or that syphillitic parapalegic whore at the mall, goddamn how I hate her.
Incidentally, the name 'black hole' was invented by John Archibald Wheeler(oralse), and seems to have stuck because it was much catchier than previous names. Before Wheeler came along, these objects were often referred to as 'frozen stars.' I'll explain why below.
How big is a black hole?
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There are at least two different ways to describe how big something is. We can say how much mass it has, or we can say how much space it takes up. Let's talk first about the fucking masses of black holes, and NO black holes are NOT catholic, shithead.There is no limit in principle to how much or how little mass a black hole can have. Any amount of mass at all can in principle be made to form a black hole if you compress it to a high enough density. We suspect that most of the black holes that are actually out there were produced in the deaths of massive stars, like Marilyn Monroe and Cher, and so we expect those black holes to weigh about as much as a massive star. A typical mass for such a stellar black hole would be about 10 times the mass of the Sun, or about 10^{31} kilograms. (Here I'm using scientific notation: 10^{31} means a 1 with 31 zeroes after it, or 10,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000.) Astronomers also suspect that many galaxies harbor extremely massive black holes and Waffle Houses at their centers. These are thought to weigh about a million times as much as the Sun, or 10^{36} kilograms.
The more massive a black hole is, the more space it takes up. In fact, the Schwarzschild radius (which means the radius of the horizon) and the mass are directly proportional to one another: if one black hole weighs ten times as much as another, its radius is ten times as large. A black hole with a mass equal to that of the Sun would have a radius of 3 kilometers. So a typical 10-solar-mass black hole would have a radius of 30 kilometers, and a million-solar-mass black hole at the center of a galaxy would have a radius of 3 million kilometers. Three million kilometers may sound like a lot, but it's actually not so big by astronomical standards, you dumb ass, this is physics and shit, not grocery baging for fagots. The Sun, for example, has a radius of about 700,000 kilometers, and so that supermassive black hole has a radius only about four times bigger than the Sun.
What would happen to me if I fell into a black hole?
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Let's suppose that you get into your shitty Type R spaceship and point it straight towards the million-solar-mass black hole in the center of our galaxy. (Actually, there's some debate about whether our galaxy contains a central black hole, but let's assume it does for the moment.) Starting from a long way away from the black hole, you just turn off your rockets and coast in. What happens?At first, you don't feel any gravitational forces at all. Since you're in free fall, and your cool ass Type R sticker can still save you, every part of your body and your spaceship is being pulled in the same way, and so you feel weightless. (This is exactly the same thing that happens to astronauts in Earth orbit: even though both astronauts and space shuttle are being pulled by the Earth's gravity, they don't feel any gravitational force because everything is being pulled in exactly the same way.) As you get closer and closer to the center of the hole, though, you start to feel "tidal" gravitational forces. Imagine that your feet are closer to the center than your head. The gravitational pull gets stronger as you get closer to the center of the hole, so your feet feel a stronger pull than your head does. As a result you feel "stretched", like that big asshole of oralse, (This force is called a tidal force because it is exactly like the forces that cause tides on earth.) These tidal forces get more and more intense as you get closer to the center, and eventually they will rip you and your shitty Type R rice rocket apart.
For a very large black hole like the one you're falling into, the tidal forces are not really noticeable until you get within about 600,000 kilometers thats like 42 feet for you lame ass americans, of the center. Note that this is after you've crossed the goddamn horizon. If you were falling into a smaller black hole, say one that weighed as much as Marlon Brando, tidal forces would start to make you quite uncomfortable when you were about 6000 kilometers away from the center, and you would have been torn apart by them long before you crossed the horizon. (That's why we decided to let you jump into a big black hole instead of a small one: we wanted you to survive at least until you got inside.)
What do you see as you are falling in? Surprisingly, you don't necessarily see anything particularly interesting, like your sex life. Images of faraway objects may be distorted in strange ways, since the black hole's gravity bends light, but that's about it. In particular, nothing special happens at the moment when you cross the horizon. Even after you've crossed the horizon, you can still see things on the outside: after all, the light from the things on the outside can still reach you. No one on the outside can see you, of course, since the light from you can't escape past the horizon.
How long does the whole fucking process take? Well, of course, it depends on how far away you start from. Let's say you start at rest from a point whose distance from the singularity is ten times the black hole's radius. Then for a million-solar-mass black hole, it takes you about 8 minutes to reach the horizon. Once you've gotten that far, it takes you only another seven seconds to hit the singularity. By the way, this time scales with the size of the black hole, so if you'd jumped into a smaller black hole, your time of death would be that much sooner.
Once you've crossed the horizon, in your remaining seven seconds, you might panic and start to fire your souped up type R rockets in a desperate attempt to avoid the singularity. Unfortunately, it's hopeless, since the singularity lies in your future, and your shitty Type R rice rocket is really a goddamn hunk of space flying shit, and there's no way to avoid your future. In fact, the harder you fire your rockets, the sooner you hit the singularity. It's best just to sit back and enjoy the ride, asshole.
My friend Penelope is sitting still at a safe distance, watching me fall into the black hole. What does she see?
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Penelope sees things quite differently from you, because of here semen encrusted eyes. As you get closer and closer to the horizon, she sees you move more and more slowly. In fact, no matter how long she waits, she will never quite see you reach the horizon, but this is really because she is blowing your friend John, cause you went off to fly into a goddamn black hole, shithead.In fact, more or less the same thing can be said about the material that formed the black hole in the first place. Suppose that the black hole formed from a collapsing star. As the material that is to form the black hole collapses, Penelope sees it get smaller and smaller, approaching but never quite reaching its Schwarzschild radius. This is why black holes were originally called frozen stars: because they seem to 'freeze' at a size just slightly bigger than the Schwarzschild radius.
Why does she see things this way? BECAUSE she is a WHORE. The best way to think about it is that it's really just an optical illusion. It doesn't really take an infinite amount of time for the black hole to form, and it doesn't really take an infinite amount of time for you to cross the horizon. (If you don't believe me, just try jumping in shithead! You'll be across the horizon in eight fucking minutes, and crushed to death mere seconds later.) As you get closer and closer to the horizon, the light that you're emitting takes longer and longer to climb back out to reach Penelope. In fact, the radiation you emit right as you cross the horizon will hover right there at the horizon forever and never reach her. You've long since passed through the horizon, but the light signal telling her that won't reach her for an infinitely long time.
There is another way to look at this whole business. In a sense, time really does pass more slowly near the horizon than it does far away. Suppose you take your shitty Type R spaceship and ride down to a point just outside the horizon, and then just hover there for a while (burning enormous amounts of fuel to keep yourself from falling the fuck in). Then you fly back out and rejoin that cocksmoking whore Penelope. You will find that she has aged much more than you during the whole process;sucking cocks all the lie long day, time passed more slowly for you than it did for her.
So which of these two explanation (the optical-illusion one or the time-slowing-down one) is really right? The answer depends on what fucking system of coordinates you use to describe the black hole. According to the usual system of coordinates, called "Schwarzschild coordinates," you cross the horizon when the time coordinate t is infinity. So in these coordinates it really does take you infinite time to cross the horizon. But the reason for that is that Schwarzschild coordinates provide a highly distorted view of what's going on near the horizon. In fact, right at the horizon the coordinates are infinitely distorted (or, to use the standard terminology, "singular"). If you choose to use coordinates that are not singular near the horizon, then you find that the time when you cross the horizon is indeed finite, but the time when Penelope sees you cross the horizon is infinite. It took the radiation an infinite amount of time to reach her. In fact, though, you're allowed to use either coordinate system, and so both explanations are valid. They're just different ways of saying the same thing.
In practice, you will actually become invisible to Penelope before too much time has passed. For one thing, light is "redshifted" to longer wavelengths as it rises away from the black hole. So if you are emitting visible light at some particular wavelength, Penelope will see light at some longer wavelength. The wavelengths get longer and longer as you get closer and closer to the horizon. Eventually, it won't be visible light at all: it will be infrared radiation, then radio waves. At some point the wavelengths will be so long that she'll be unable to observe them. Furthermore, remember that light is emitted in individual packets called photons. Suppose you are emitting photons as you fall past the horizon. At some point, you will emit your last photon before you cross the horizon. That photon will reach Penelope at some finite time -- typically less than an hour for that million-solar-mass black hole -- and after that she'll never be able to see you again. (After all, none of the photons you emit *after* you cross the horizon will ever get to her.)
If a black hole existed, would it suck up all the matter in the Universe?
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FUCK, no. A black hole has a "horizon," which means a region from which you can't escape. If you cross the horizon, you're fucking doomed to eventually hit the singularity. But as long as you stay outside of the horizon, you can avoid getting sucked in. In fact, to someone well outside of the horizon, the gravitational field surrounding a black hole is no different from the field surrounding any other object of the same mass. In other words, a one-solar-mass black hole is no better than any other one-solar-mass object (such as, for example, the Sun) at "sucking in" distant objects.What if the Sun became a black hole?
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Well, first, let me assure you that the Sun has no intention of doing any such thing. Only stars that weigh considerably more than the Sun end their lives as black holes. The Sun is going to stay roughly the way it is for another five fucking billion years or so. Then it will go through a brief phase as a big ass red giant star, during which time it will expand to engulf the planets Mercury and Venus, and make life quite uncomfortable on Earth (oceans boiling, atmosphere escaping, that cunt Penelope sucking even more cocks, that sort of thing). After that, the Sun will end its life by becoming a boring ass white dwarf star. If I were you, I'd make plans to move somewhere far away before any of this happens, like Amsterdam, I also wouldn't buy any of those 8-billion-year government bonds.But I digress. What if the Sun *did* become a black hole for some reason? The main effect is that it would get very dark and very cold around here, WOW, this is SO much like your sex life, huh? The Earth and the other planets would not get sucked into the black hole; they would keep on orbiting in exactly the same paths they follow right now. Why? Because the horizon of this black hole would be very small -- only about 3 kilometers -- and as we observed above, if you can comprehend what you fucking read, as long as you stay well outside the goddamn horizon, a black hole's gravity is no stronger than that of any other object of the same mass.
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Ruvyen Warblade had this to say about the Spice Girls:
I think they're actually in four dimensions, as they deal with space (length, width, height, which we can move freely in) and time (seconds, minutes, doesn't matter the term, we can only go one way- forward).
I would argue that all variable are dependant upon each other. Location should (and is in fact) described in (x,y,z,t) corridinants. I beleive time is not used as a spacial descriptor becuase of the difficulties that aries when trying to graph more then 3 variables whith a resultant. (Side Note: If anyone knows where a method to do just that is described, please point me in that direction) So to colclude the mindless ramblings I say that each point in space is unique to its instantanious position. A point (x,y,z) is useless without the aditional descriptor t. So now that I have lost 90% of people I will say you can go 'backwards' in space either.
This is what I get for trying to make an intelligent post as 11:00pm.
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Drysart had this to say about Duck Tales:
A thread about black holes??? This just isn't complete without this:Really Long quote thingy...
The infamous Type R black hole description.
WTF i didnt post this, and no I'm not a pothead eather 
, i guess im on atou logging and my sister found this site 
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lVlaverick had this to say about (_|_):
Sometimes I worry that I'm one of the only people that think pretty much constantly of how black holes work and all, but I want someones serious opinion on this. Most of the people think of black holes as being 2 or 3 dimensional things, but maybe both answers are wrong. Maybe the reason their is such question surrounding them is because they can't be explained in terms a person set to think in 3 dimensions can understand. I believe that the possibility of there being universes outside ours and that there is an underlying structure to how those universes overlay each other in more dimensions than the human mind can handle. I might be outspoken in these ideas, or they might have already been thought up. But don't care right now and anyone with a serious opinion I'd like to here from.
Well, if a black hole is a point singluarity, as most agree it is, it's dimension is easy. Zero.
But seriously, I wouldn't worry too much about that "more dimensions than a human mind can handle" thing. Sure, we can't picture more than three, but that's never stopped us from working in higher dimensions. One of the wonders of mathematics (and therefore physics) is that is can work and function long after we lose the ability to conceptualize it. We constantly do math in things impossible to imagine, black holes are no different. For instance, thanks to fractals, we've even figurured out how to play around with fractions of a dimension.
Believe me, physicists will try out as many dimensions as necessary to explain a black hole. For instance, current string theory has about 13 or 26 dimensions (depending on the version), but yet, as long as we trust the mathematics, we can still work it out. Heck, I've even seen infinite dimensional mathematics at work once or twice. As a species, we're good at working around barriers of our conceptions. I can garuntee you that the problem isn't that we're not considering enough dimensions. Mathemeticians and physicists are very clever people; if it makes even a bit of sense, they'll try it out.
The big source of mystery around black holes comes from a problem that I've brought up a huge number of times on this board: the fact that quantum mechanics and relativity don't work together, and contradict each other. Normally, this contradiction isn't important: quantum mechanics loses it's meaning above an atomic scale, and general relativity's effects fade to almost nothing once you leave the planetary scale. However, black holes are one of those very few kinds of objects where both are important. It's got enough gravity to create relativistic effects and require Einstein's mathematics, but it's also unimaginably small at the core, quantum mechanical effects would have huge effects. Hence, the irreconcilable theories are both needed to describe a black hole, and as they don't work together, we're left with a big blank once we enter that sort of scale. So, until we get a theory that can handle both gravitons and probabliity theory, we're going to be largely left in the dark on this one.
And Palou, don't be so quick to dismiss the Einstein-Rosenberg bridge (aka. Wormholes). If you'd like, I can get into a long disucssion as to how they work, but I've got to get to a group meeting now, so suffice it to say that yes, given a sufficent ability to manipluate singlularities, such as those in a black hole, it should be theoretically possible to connect disseperate points in this universe, and also possibly connect to other universes. Black holes may do it all on their own, though this wouln't be very useful as is, as you'd have to pass through the singularity, which wouldn't leave much of you.
But wormholes are real ideas in science, not just science fiction. Treat them as such. [ 03-05-2002: Message edited by: Chalesm ]
In the beginning the Universe was created.Douglas Adams, 1952-2001
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The Earth and the other planets would not get sucked into the black hole; they would keep on orbiting in exactly the same paths they follow right now.
Wrong.
Orbital paths are caused when Inertia meets Gravity. If they aren't effected by gravity, their under the influence of their inertia, which means they would go off in a straight path.
Wrong also, because if the Sun collapsed into a black hole, there'd most likely be a released shockwave before the Sun was turned into a neutron star, which would A)Vaporize the planets(as seen in a Nova, or Super Nova), or B) Knock them out in space.
If anything, Jupiter most likely would pull one of the smaller planets in an orbit around itself, if they were to go that way.
If that happens, there could most likely be another Triton-Pluto Collision Thoery(One of the thoeries as to why Triton has a reverse orbit) reinactment! [ 03-05-2002: Message edited by: Skaw ]
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as seen in a Nova, or Super Nova
I thought that when there was a supernova, there can't be a black hole and the matter simply disperses, eventually joining other hydrogen clouds to form another star? 
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Niklas had this to say about Matthew Broderick:
I thought that when there was a supernova, there can't be a black hole and the matter simply disperses, eventually joining other hydrogen clouds to form another star?
Thats with the gascious matter. The core of the star(Neutron Star, since all protons and electrons were released in the shockwave) still remains, and if it has enough mass, gets compressed into a black hole.
Hyper Novas almost skip the Neutron Star phase and just collapse into 1 large Black Hole!
[ 03-05-2002: Message edited by: Skaw ]
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Skaw had this to say about (_|_):
Wrong.Orbital paths are caused when Inertia meets Gravity. If they aren't effected by gravity, their under the influence of their inertia, which means they would go off in a straight path.
If the sun collapsed into a black hole, it would still have gravity (even outside its event horizon, it just isn't devestating past that point), and all the orbital paths of the planets would stay the same.
Anything outside the CURRENT diameter of the sun would be affected by the same gravitational pulls if the sun were to collapse into a black hole. [ 03-06-2002: Message edited by: Drysart ]
