wtf?

>_<

o_0

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Zephyer wrote this stupid crap:
*suddenly has the Monty Python song 'Every Sperm is Precious' running through his head*

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Every sperm is SACRED.

And isn't the AIDS virus smaller than the permeability of condoms so could pass through the condom anyway?

Why don't people advocate like Abstinence, or is it too hard to like restrain yourself from doing something stupid, like having unprotected sex underage and getting pregnant?

I am pro-choice, you make your choice when you choose to have unprotected sex. After that it's called responsibility for your actions.

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Kanid had this to say about dark elf butts:
Every sperm is SACRED.

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BAH! I haven't seen that movie in years. The words are blurry.

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Zephyer had this to say about Jimmy Carter:
BAH! I haven't seen that movie in years. The words are blurry.

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I last saw it over 8 years ago, and I still have the song running through my head...

Bottom line is, yes abstinence if you're considering casual relationships, yadda yadda yadda. Fact is that's the clincher. People who are serious enough to decide to have sex are entirely capable of being careful.

I know, for instance, that Lyinar has no STD's. And she knows that I have no STD's. We're not married. We've had sexual intercourse with each other before and likely will again before we're married. We do, however, practice contraception. Lyinar has a son, and just started college. I'm in college with no kids. Fact is that neither of us want more kids right now in life, if ever.

Needless to say, not everyone is as responsible or knowledgeable about themselves or their partner of choice as some unmarried couples. A lot of people (of all ages, but especially teenagers because the outcome could be more tragic) are going to have sex with people who they're hoping are clean/safe/not infected. A lot of them aren't going to go running to their parents when they decide it's time to lose their virginity. So where does that leave the situation?

Kids can't legally (in most states) get a prescription for birth control pills under the age of majority (which is, of course, not the same as the age of consent). So what are you supposed to do? Tell kids they can't have sex until they're married and leave it at that?

That's stupid, that's irresponsible, and that's begging for trouble. There are no two ways about it. Pregnant mothers unable to support themselves end up living off the system. Some better themselves. (I'd say a LOT of them don't, but I may be jaded heavily from seeing people cheating the system at the local community college.) But the fact is that whatever choices they decided to live with, it puts a serious cramp in their plans to stop and start raising a child. You can't ask them to give up their child, or have abortions, and most people don't want to take the control of elements of a minor child's life out of the hands of the parents by changing the law so that young women can get on the pill without parental consent.

And even if they DO get on the pill, that's not a silver bullet. It reduces the problem, but kids can still get any number of vicious sexually transmitted diseases. So if you're going to play the odds and have casual sexual intercourse (or even uninformed, immature sexual relationships like a lot of teenagers have), it's better to tell kids to use a condom. And you have to say "Look, if you're not going to do anything else that we ask you, please, please use a condom." What does it take to get your hands on a rubber?

Another fact is that it's easy to take responsibility for your actions if you don't understand the weight it can carry. Finding yourself pregnant one day is scary. I remember when Lyinar found out she was pregnant. She was nervous and scared and apprehensive about things she could have never possibly realistically been prepared for. Whether Lyinar would have chosen differently is beside the point. The fact was she had no idea what sort of impact it would have on her life beyond "well this is bad" and the experiences she'd witnessed with her sisters. And all she did was get pregnant.

Imagine dealing with the realization that you're going to die. Or, not to be so drastic, that you're going to have genital herpes for the rest of your life. Or that you'll have recurring genital warts. Or Syphillus. You'll live, but you'll never be the same again in that way.

There's no way most kids could prepare themselves for that. So if they're going to be boneheads like teenagers are (it's normal, annoying, but normal and better to learn to accept it rather than yank all your hair out over it), it's better to get them to agree to this one simple thing if they won't agree to anything else.

As for the Church's policy...I don't see the Church as being evil, per se. The idea's right. They do have a Fact (Abstinence is the best policy). The problem is that sometimes it seems like they're so giddy over having an irreputable fact that they drive it into the ground.

The bible says "Better to spend your seed in the belly of a whore than let it spill to the ground" or something to that effect (don't have my bible handy, and yes I do have one, and yes I've read through most of it, and have favorite passages marked. No I'm not Christian). Well...hate to break it to you folks, but that's just wrong. I'd rather my kid be whacking off in his bedroom than out getting a hooker. But it's the difference in times. The Church has tried to keep up with the times with different inferred meanings (in this case the more modern version would be something dealing abstinence), but there are some people who take it all too literally, even the metaphorical inferred allegories.

We have a problem, and pushing religious ideals isn't going to work in the modern era. You have to find a universal answer, and one religion's take or a handful of religions' take isn't it. Can't force or coerce or talk everyone into partaking of a religion.

In other words, good idea, bad translation. But then again I consider myself something of a more middle-ground republican than the religious right wingers, like the ones who attacked Powell. *shrugs*

Getting AIDS through a condom : I remember reading something about the size of the AIDS virus is smaller than the size of the holes in condoms. (yes, latex is permeable, just VERY small holes, we're talking microns here)

In the meantime the schools and government work to cover the asses of people in general. Your parents never gave you the safe sex talk? You're having sex? Use a condom. Scared to buy them? Here. Take these.

Yes the kid's the parent's responsibility, but the kid can apply for all sorts of aid for the kid too. Parents watch out for their own ass and their kid, government watches out for the community that now has to help take responsibility.

But you can't force anyone to tell their kids anything. And parents get up in arms about sex ed. So what are you going to do? Say abstinence is the answer and leave it at that? You can't enforce abstinence. Statutory rape laws exist, and have been expanded. Do you really think that every underaged girl who has sex ever deals with a statutory rape charge? No way. You can legislate things to deal with the situation after it occurs. You can have policy, but you can't intrude on someone's life until they do something. Not like that. It can backlash a hundred different ways.

Yes Abstinence is the the surefire way of avoiding STD's, etc through sexual contact. Is it wholly realistic? No. You need to cover your bases, and as a representative of the government, Powell said the right thing. Condoms, in reference to the abstinence issue, should be used if you're going to have sex. If you're going to have sex, then that's the antonymical opposite to "abstinence" which means having no sex.

That's all I got out of that Deth essay!

Illanae flees!

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Kanid had this to say about Jimmy Carter:

Getting AIDS through a condom : I remember reading something about the size of the AIDS virus is smaller than the size of the holes in condoms. (yes, latex is permeable, just VERY small holes, we're talking microns here)

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That was a tasty bit of misinformation promulgated by the religious right in a lame attempt to create fear, scaring people into abstenece. It is absolutely unfounded in fact, and is yet another example of how a certain segment of society prey upon the ignorance of others to further their political agenda.

It's the same pseudoscientific bullshit used by those who claim the 2nd law of thermodynamics prohibits evolution.

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Bloodsage had this to say about John Romero:
That was a tasty bit of misinformation promulgated by the religious right in a lame attempt to create fear, scaring people into abstenece. It is absolutely unfounded in fact, and is yet another example of how a certain segment of society prey upon the ignorance of others to further their political agenda.

It's the same pseudoscientific bullshit used by those who claim the 2nd law of thermodynamics prohibits evolution.

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Thanks for the clarification.

How is the second law of thermodynamics supposed to prohibit evolution (which we have easily observed occuring) ?

The flaw, of course, is that the earth is not a closed system, and receives all sorts of energy input via the sun, amongst other sources. And entropy does, in fact increase with time if one takes even the solar system as the entity in question.

Pseudoscientific obfuscation to confuse an issue or create fear is quite a common tactic for a particular segment of America's religious right.

Illanae spanks 'sage!

Watching someone try to figure out what it means is hilarious. Some people pass out from the effort

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Bloodsage had this to say about Tron:
Pseudoscientific obfuscation to confuse an issue or create fear is quite a common tactic for a particular segment of America's religious right.

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They should just stick to book banning, gun confiscation and video game bashing like the left wingers.

Laytex condoms are the safer ones out there. They are 99.9% effective in stoping AIDS/HIV and other STDs, along with stoping sperm. However, like all condoms, they can break (believe me, I know... >.< ) And some people can develop an allergy to either the laytex itself, or the dust (if unlubed kind) they put on it.

The other type made is the sheep intestinal skin kind (gross huh) Although not really seen much, since this one IS porous enough that AIDS/HIV and other STDs can get through. Also, some people can allso develop an allergic reaction to this one to. =P

Now this is information I learned from my HHA trainer. Weither or not the information is correct, is up to the training materials, and information she gave us.

on a personal note.

To me, Sperms not that sacred. I don't want to give birth, and bring in another kid into this world, when there are plenty of them waiting to have a home with a mommy and daddy, then living in bording/foster/orphanages. There are enough people in the world as it is. So my choice is to give a little one the same chance as my folks did for me and my brother.

As for some who think "Then become abstenent" Hell no. I'm not sleeping around, I don't have a boyfriend of the week. I have one guy who I'm devoted to. (even though sometimes I wanna smack him with a crow bar, but I think that's a common thought amoung women =P)
So if I wanna screw him... I will. He puts on a condom, we use spermacide (KILL THEM LITTLE BASTERDS!!!!) and I'm on "the pill" (even though it's more to prevent certian cancers...) Got my bases covered!

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Kanid thumped his bible and proclaimed righteously to all the sinners:
And isn't the AIDS virus smaller than the permeability of condoms so could pass through the condom anyway?

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No, latex condoms prevent the transmission of HIV. Other types of condoms may not (such as lambskin), however, as a result of that, they're all pretty much gone now in favor of latex.

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Kanid thumped his bible and proclaimed righteously to all the sinners:
Why don't people advocate like Abstinence, or is it too hard to like restrain yourself from doing something stupid, like having unprotected sex underage and getting pregnant?

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I don't know, if conservatives have their way, condoms wouldn't even be available, so I guess it would be hard to restrain yourself from having unprotected sex since the safer, more intelligent alternative of safe sex isn't even an option.

Telling people not to have sex doesn't cut it since sex is a basic, primal human desire. Yeah, religious types get a hard-on when they talk about abstinence, but for more level-headed people, it's no big deal, especially when there are safe ways to do it.

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Kanid thumped his bible and proclaimed righteously to all the sinners:
I am pro-choice, you make your choice when you choose to have unprotected sex. After that it's called responsibility for your actions.

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This coming from the same person that thought the government was overstepping their boundaries in telling you to reinforce your bathroom walls? You think that's overstepping boundaries, but then you turn around and want to tell women what they can do with their bodies?

Hypocrite.

At NO point whatsoever did I say my opinion should be law, nor did I say that abortion should be illegal. I think it should be legal, as a matter of fact, so before you start berating me for my opinion, at LEAST learn what the hell you are berating me about, eh?

As a conservative, I find your general comment about conservatives ignorant and appalling. Condoms serve a purpose and should be used appropriately.

Back to my original question, which everyone has so conveniently avoided : Has the teen pregnancy rate gone down or up since the start of sex education in school?

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In October 1996, the U.S. Department of Health and Human Services released data showing an 8 percent drop in the teen birth rate from 1991 to 1995.11

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that what you were looking for ?

[ 02-16-2002: Message edited by: Kloie ]

At times it can make you wish you were dead, but not kill.

Seriously, I consider myself a "open-minded conservative".

I do believe an unborn fetus is a person. But that doesn't change the situation for the scared 14-year old girl who's only choice is to have one. She might as well have it in a clean, professional environment rather than a back room somewhere, risking injuries or infections that might kill her.

If my woman told me she was pregnant, and considering an abortion; I won't lie to you; I'd want the kid very very much. But it's not my body. I'd try everything I could think of to persuade her not to abort the child, but in the end, I would not stop her, no matter how much I wanted to. I'd mourn the loss of that child, but God help me, I would not stop her.

I like to think my first sexual experience will be as part of a committed relationship. I can wait until I'm married if I need to, but if my woman wants to before we are married, well, hey. She could rest assured knowing I'm not likely to be carrying anything, at least.

I'm probably naive to think I wouldn't NEED a condom if I was in an committed, monogamous, relationship; I guess I'll deal with that when the time comes.

Aanile brings up a point that made me think... are we humans being selfish, continuing to procreate when there are children out there waiting in foster home/orphanages to be adopted? Is it selfish of me to say, "Yes, but I want my own biolgical children."? I wasn't adopted (My parents have reassured me over and over); but I can understand what Aanile means when she'd rather give one of those little ones a chance, like she had.

At least no one has yet suggested that society as a whole stop making new children until all the unclaimed ones have homes... that would be a scary movie...

Oh well, enough blathering from the naive paladin.

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Kanid had this to say about (_|_):
Back to my original question, which everyone has so conveniently avoided : Has the teen pregnancy rate gone down or up since the start of sex education in school?

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Actually I don't know, but you wouldn't have brought it up if it hadn't gone up, so I'll assume it did .

Sex ist becoming more accepted in society as a whole, loosing the stigma that was imposed upon anything sexual in the past. Thus you have more and more teenagers having sex at a younger age than previously, resulting, event if you take the same quota of average pregnancies per legal minor having sex, the raw number of pregnancies would rise.

Sexual education in schools is merely a side effect of sex turning into something socially acceptable, not the cause at all. Let's assume you have those basic groups of teenagers:

1) The informed ones having safe sex.
2) The informed ones having unprotected sex.
3) The uninformed ones having unprotected sex.
4) The uninformed ones not having sex, mainly due to fear and stigma..
5) The informed ones not having sex.

Now, you cannot do anything about group two, no matter how much you tell them, this however, is their fault, they choose to do something stupid, that is not a failure of sexual education.

Now, if you bring an increasing amount of education into the system, more and more of groups three, three and four will move to groups groups one, two or five.

Educaton can't keep someone from beeing an idiot, it has the duty however to provide everyone with sufficient informatin to make choices for themselves. Those that move from groups three and four to group two will suffer the consequences based on their own informed decision.

Yes, maybe group four would have remained larger, thus maybe even increasing the total number of pregnancies through a large migration towards group two, but keeping people ignorant cannot be the answer in any part of society, and yes, even if we are talking about legal minors.

What about those moving from group three to group one or five? They may suffer nasty consequences, based on the fact that they did not have the facts so make an informed decision, that they would have made wisely, just to protect those that would have decided the wrong way? Where's the logic in that?

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Mightion Defensor stumbled drunkenly to the keyboard and typed:
I'm living proof abstinence does not kill.

At times it can make you wish you were dead, but not kill.

Seriously, I consider myself a "open-minded conservative".

I do believe an unborn fetus is a person. But that doesn't change the situation for the scared 14-year old girl who's only choice is to have one. She might as well have it in a clean, professional environment rather than a back room somewhere, risking injuries or infections that might kill her.

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<Em has a new role-model...>

Except for when you refer to your girlfriend as "my woman"...That just irked me, everytime I read that. =P
But I'm with ya on everything else.

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And I was all like 'Oh yeah?' and Modrakien was all like:
Actually I don't know, but you wouldn't have brought it up if it hadn't gone up, so I'll assume it did .

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See: My Post. I know it's not that recent and that it's over the span of a few years, but eh.

Lemme think...

"My lover"... a bit sugary.
"My b*tch"... Uh, no.
"My partner" ... implies business suits... no.
"My soulmate"... back with the sugar.
"My wife"... Good, but refer to the bit about not having to wait for marriage
"My sweetie"... cliche.
"The woman"... less possessive, but too objectifying
"Girlfriend"... okay... that will work.

Please go back through, Em, and insert "girlfriend" where this male chauvanist pig said "My woman".

However, education is always a good thing. The problem is when the educators are too focused on one thing and not the big picture.

Condoms are a good thing. They prevent STDs and they prevent unwanted children. But when you force feed condoms to children, you are advocating sex as much as giving drugs to children advocates drug use.

There is nothing wrong with sex. Sex is a wonderful thing, but it should be shared between two educated and responsible parties who know the repurcussions of their actions and are willing to accept the responsibilities should something happen due to their actions.

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Kanid had this to say about Optimus Prime:
Actually, despite whether the numbers are larger or smaller, there is no way to prove any direct correlation since there are far too many other factors to consider as well.

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....

then why did you ask in the first place?

For those of you reading this as guide to safe sex, or whatever..

You can get STDs from someone going down on you. Several nasty ones, to, including Herpes, which can never be completly cured. And with Herpes, it's not nessecarily just if you have herpes.. if someone with a cold sore goes down on you... yer pretty much fucked. ((No pun intended)). So be careful. Please.

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Gikkwiny had this to say about Cuba:
Just.. an added thing.

For those of you reading this as guide to safe sex, or whatever..

You can get STDs from someone going down on you. Several nasty ones, to, including Herpes, which can never be completly cured. And with Herpes, it's not nessecarily just if you have herpes.. if someone with a cold sore goes down on you... yer pretty much fucked. ((No pun intended)). So be careful. Please.

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Silver takes care of that!
Just pu some colladial silver on the wounds, and because nothing can grow on silver, it'll clear ya right up!

Or drink it.. well do this if you're not allergic to silver like me....

I like Colin Powell. I think he is a snazzy guy.

I would have been upset if GWB (under pressure from supporters/party members) hushed Colin Powell up, and disagreed with him...
I would have laughed (a lot) if GWB (under pressure from supporters/party members) removed Colin Powell from office.

Right now, I don't mind George W Bush (I mean, I don't think he's fantastic, but he hasn't F-ed up anything that I can think of, and he's performed as any President should), but I still like Colin Powell more.

OK, for one thing, is anyone here of the opinion that Sex Education is bad? I know there are certain groups out there completely opposed to Sex Education that work under the premise that "If nobody talks about it, then it won't happen, and by exposing our youths to sex, even in education, they are corrupted." I, and others, call this the Ostrich Abstinence theory... "If we bury our heads in the sand, there won't be any sex. And if there is, we won't have to know or talk about it."

Also, the AIDs transmission through latex condoms is incorrect. If someone has contracted AIDs while using a condom, the chances are that either the condom broke, the condom wasn't applied properly (you'd be surprised how hard some people find it to figure out how to apply them properly), or they were using one of the "old fashion" condoms (animal skin).

"The Pill" is a great thing also, in my opinion. In the event that the condom does break, or it wasn't applied properly, or some special circumstances (You get drunk and wake up in some guy's apartment), you're still more than likely okay. You'd also be surprised at how many, pre-SexEd, think that things like "the Pill" will stop STDs.

And yeah, Kanid, it is hard for some people to wait. No offense to you, you can do what you want, but darnit, that's you. I'm, I guess, one of those people who doesn't see Sex as the penultimate consummation of your undying love with another person for all eternity.
Of course, I think sex is an important thing, and something that should only be done out of love or, at the very least, as something done for pleasure.

At any rate, I'm just a silly teenager. And I'm unmarried.

(Yeah, I'm an adult, legally, but I'm still a teenager, )

The usual Lashanna disclaimer: I'm sorry if it didn't make sense, but the longer my posts get, the less coherent they are.

(It's my thread, dammit, I can make a completely off topic comment if I want!)

I WILL HAVE SEX ANYWAY. I don't care if there are big ad campaigns taken out, I don't care if I'm reminded of it before every meal and before bed. I don't care if abstinence will give me little faerie wings and enable me to fly. I WILL HAVE SEX ANYWAY. Not only will I have sex, I will have sex with many partners, male and female, and quite possibly as often as I can get it. NO. THERE IS NOTHING THAT CAN BE DONE ABOUT THAT. You can give me all the abstinence chit-chats you want, sex is better than masturbation.

I AM SCARED OF STDS AND PREGNANCY. Really scared. I don't want a kid this early in my life and I especially don't want to catch anything hideous, and possibly die. But is this enough to make me not have sex. NO. See point above.

I UNDERSTAND THE RISKS. Generally, if a kid is old enough to be having sex on even a quasi-regular basis, that kid understands the risks of such a thing. They've had sex ed, they've had comfy parental talks, and they're probably scared all to hell of STDS and pregnancy as well.

KNOWING THE RISKS, KNOWING THE CONCEQUCNES, I WILL TAKE APPROPRIATE ACTION TO LESSEN THEM, ALTHOUGH WILL NOT GO AGAINST MY FIRST POINT. Meaning? I will have sex. There is nothing that can make me not have sex. But. I will take the neccessary precautions to make sure that if I get an STD or pregnant, it damn well better be an act of God. I want to lessen my chances as much as can be, but not through abstinence.

I AM YOUR AVERAGE TEENAGER.

Use this information wisely.