First the background. I am a college student. Why? Because I think I'm learning and want to better myself? No, because my family is obsessed with "We want you to have what we didnt have." Even if that means I dont want it.
I want to know. Who here actually believes you learn anything in college?
Who here feels college is just bullshit and endurance. Employeers know it doesnt mean shit, but they just want to see the paper?
Learning experience or paper?
Paper...
I can say for sure, except in my history classes I've learned NOTHING in college. I passed so many classes and have no fucking clue what I learned. I (legally) cheated through accounting 1. And by legally, I mean it was a computer course. The professor encouraged you to work in pairs. Well... once you submitted a test, it told you the answers... so each time one of us got a 100. That will come back to haunt me right?
Wrong. Im in accounting 2, same shit.
Further, Ive worked for a firm as an apprentice accountant. NOTHING we did relates in any way to what Im learning. We had our system, we did our system. Do companies follow this text book crap?
Ferrel!
quote:
Ferrel thought this was the Ricky Martin Fan Club Forum and wrote:
I'd like to enjoy an intellgent discussion with you guys.
I think you lost most of us right there. 
I think sometimes it's paper and sometimes it's for education. Some colleges are great for learning things because they have good departments for what you want to learn. It depends on what you wanna be and such...
Although I will say this. College learning pales in comparison to actually DOING the job and learning while on the job. Work experience > all.
That's my 2 cents.
I am learning *NOTHING* in college that relates to the real world.
Absolutely nothing...
Perhaps, I *MIGHT* use the stuff I'm learning about how to use Access, but even that's not very likely...
I fail to see what value a college degree has, now. Honestly, I see no point to it.
What they're shoveling into my head, I'm never going to use.
If college were an R&D department, I'd say that they'd be shut down. Basically, they're putting all this stuff into their product that is never going to be used. Seriously, I'd say about 90 percent of this stuff is never, ever going to even see the a glimmer of use...
Hell, if you want tedious, I've got a linguistics class that's dealing with Phonetics and Phonology, and more crap along those lines. I don't plan to be a linguist, I don't plan to leave the country, and I sure as hell don't plan on analyzing the sounds of a foreign language if I should hear it in passing...
And yet, for some reason, this is a Required class.
All I can ask is... Why?
Oh, and for the record, I'm at college for the exact same reason as you. I hate it here, but unfortunately, I also know that the world at large won't give me a decent job unless I have that pointless slip of paper.
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Mooj impressed everyone with:Oh, and for the record, I'm at college for the exact same reason as you. I hate it here, but unfortunately, I also know that the world at large won't give me a decent job unless I have that pointless slip of paper.
Not pointless then, is it?
Tough fact. You are given the OPPORTUNITY to go to college. This is more than some people ever get.
You are given the OPPORTUNITY to choose your job. This is more than a few more people get.
You have the OPPORTUNITY to choose a job that you would enjoy, as opposed to being forced into a job which (no matter how much it pays) is drudgery.
Ferrel, you talk about being an accountant. That's all well and good, but you have to ask yourself...
Would you have gotten the job as an intern had you not have taken the college courses?
Depending on the field you go in to study, you will definately learn something. Hell, at one point I learned more about logic circuits than any one human being should be forced to. (Remembering any of it is a different story. 
)
I'd like to say that college is a learning experience, but a lot of it differs with the field you're studying in.
quote:
Arttemis the Twink wrote this stupid crap:
Not pointless then, is it?Tough fact. You are given the OPPORTUNITY to go to college. This is more than some people ever get.
You are given the OPPORTUNITY to choose your job. This is more than a few more people get.
You have the OPPORTUNITY to choose a job that you would enjoy, as opposed to being forced into a job which (no matter how much it pays) is drudgery.
Ferrel, you talk about being an accountant. That's all well and good, but you have to ask yourself...
Would you have gotten the job as an intern had you not have taken the college courses?
Depending on the field you go in to study, you will definately learn something. Hell, at one point I learned more about logic circuits than any one human being should be forced to. (Remembering any of it is a different story.
)
I'd like to say that college is a learning experience, but a lot of it differs with the field you're studying in.
Well, okay, I could have phrased it better.
Yes, the paper has a point. The paper will get me a job.
But the process to get the paper has almost no value, thus the paper itself has no value except for what the outside world deludes itself into thinking. Like a diamond, now that I think about it...
You said it yourself, with the Logic Circuits thing. You may have known more about them than any human should, but you've forgotten it, and therefor, you're never going to use it.
That knowledge is now worthless, though by no means worthless to you if you would actually use it.
My complaint with college is the classes they require you to take, the ones that have no bearing on what you want to do.
In my view, *AND MY VIEW ONLY*, It's just such a major excercise in pointlessness.
And blast it... I'm getting tired, I think I completely missed the point I was trying to make...
The lameass sheet of paper they give you at the end of your 4+ years of torture seems to be worth it. I've seen far too many people put into positions they shouldn't be in because they had some papers.
Having had a CNE at one point (at the age of 16) I've experienced this first hand. The paper doesn't mean shit except that you maintained the minimum level of requirements (in the case of my CNE I managed to read the course manuals and survive the tests). This in no way proves that you know what you're doing.
Now, having said all that, I don't think I'd mind going to college, but it would be on *my* terms. I'd go because I wanted to know (that's kinda how I wound up with my CNE). I'd take a physics course where, a comp sci course there.... because I was interested in what they offered, not because some jackass in a career development centre says I have to have English or History (both of which I care very little for)...
Just my $0.02
Honestly, I just finished my GE and now I feel like I'm learning more than I ever had before. I suppose it does also depend on what department and major program you're in. The aviation program at my school is very hands-on, we have a campus at the airport with over twenty real honest to god airplanes from a Cessna 152, all the way up to a Boeing 727 and a North American F-100 Super Sabre to use for "lab work"
above that however college is such a personal growth experience. Do you live in the dorms? I'd highly reccomend trying that for at least 1 year. I lived in the dorms for 2 years and I was never happier than when I moved out of them, however I did make all of the friends that I have now out of that first group I lived with.
if you're not enjoying your major perhaps there is something else you'd like to try? don't lock yourself into what you went there for. I came here at first as a CS major but the more I looked around in my classes the more terrified I became of actually becoming a career programmer. I enjoy programming it's just not something I want to do for a living. I looked around at the people in my classes and I was certain none of them were having any fun. Maybe some were... but not enough. I decided to return to my first love: Flying. [ 02-11-2002: Message edited by: Kermitov ]
First thing that a 4 year degree tells employers, is that you are serious about wanting a good job. Second, it tells them you know how to sit through lectures, apply your knowledge, read/write, look up information, and have basic human brain power. While these all seem like trivial tasks, it's what most jobs consist of.
Now to the question if you learn anything? Well, if you just go with the flow probably not. Most 'real' learning is done independantly, you find something you like, and look into it more.
I'd say, hopefully you learn something about yourself and about the real world while you're at college too, that's a pretty big part of it (IMHO).
You get what you give, people. Put forth the effort to learn, you will take something away from school. Phone it in...well, it's your money.
Under capitalism, man exploits man. Under communism, it's just the opposite. - John Kenneth Galbraith
quote:
Check out the big brain on Arttemis the Twink!
Ferrel, you talk about being an accountant. That's all well and good, but you have to ask yourself...
Yes, without a shadow of a doubt. I got the job at the firm because my friend worked there. I was working data entry and one day, the accountant was like "You're good with computers, why dont you try this..."
And I did. College did crap to get me that job. All my playing around on my computer got me that job. [ 02-11-2002: Message edited by: Ferrel ]
Ferrel!
Currently I am in college, Going for Mechanical Engineering, and a mjority of what I am learning I will be useing at some point. so far the most useless classes I have taken were sociology clasess becuse I thought they would be intersting and filled out a humanity credit. And I do know most of the Higher Math I will be learning I will almost never be useing, but there is always chance I will need it (My dad has been a engineer for about 20+ years and Only used a diffrential Equation Once the whole time). What college gives you is a tool kit and your employers know that and the more tools you have the more usefull you are.
BUT I would like to say that the C and C++ classes are VERY imformative(to bad I havent taken C in a year and going into C++ is a pain in the arse, im 3 weeks behind /doh, but I catch up fast)
This is my 3rd year in college(still on my associates.... /rude counselors "take this... take that...")
My english classes were just BS, didnt learn a dam thing. Im taking a class in Systems Analaysis... since when does a CIS class involve papers and in front of class speeches?!.....BS... next time I read what a class is about before taking in based on "needed for degree".
OTHER then that... I didnt learn a thing, its just a waste of time...
quote:
Ferrel had this to say about Matthew Broderick:
Yes, without a shadow of a doubt. I got the job at the firm because my friend worked there. I was working data entry and one day, the accountant was like "You're good with computers, why dont you try this..."And I did. College did crap to get me that job. All my playing around on my computer got me that job.
Yes, that old phrase 'it's not what you know, it's who you know' is more often then not, right on the nose.
People can pull strings for ya. But people can only pull strings so far before they break =)
With as many people who are looking for jobs right now, employers can be very picky over who they want to hire. And people with degree's have just another edge over those who dont.
People find things they like to be interesting, rewarding and valuable...hmmm, go figure.
Secondly they don't like things that do not interest them, or that they feel have no use or purpose...again most curious.
I think that rather than take the history of basket weaving and how too tally immense columns of numbers while spouting Shakespeare we should all be forced into worthwhile and necessary classes.
Here's the list...
How to Drive
How to Fuck
How to be a decent human being
How to chill the fuck out
How to Drive (can you tell I just got done commuting?)
I'm sure there's more, gimme some more time to think. Actually that's a world changing set of classes right there though. Imagine if everyone knew how to do those things...rather than just think they do. (including me)
I'm currently interested in Theoretical Astro-Physics (Stephen Hawking/Einstien kind of stuff). and without spending a decade or so in college anything i would study on the matter wouldn't mean jack shit.
and jack has already left the building.
it really comes down to this, is what you want to do Academic or Practical? I'm mostly interested in the academioc so that means i have to go to college AND learn stuff there.
quote:
Geeorn had this to say about Optimus Prime:
Depends on what you want to do.I'm currently interested in Theoretical Astro-Physics (Stephen Hawking/Einstien kind of stuff). and without spending a decade or so in college anything i would study on the matter wouldn't mean jack shit.
and jack has already left the building.
it really comes down to this, is what you want to do Academic or Practical? I'm mostly interested in the academioc so that means i have to go to college AND learn stuff there.
I'm trying to do somewhat the same thing. The only way to be truly accepted in the community is to have a background in it. Hell I am learning alot. most of which is review but it is in a different respect. the Calc aspect.
I'm going to be in college for most of my life. or working for one through another company...{JPL/CalTech}
$.02
There were certainly things in college that I did not NEED to learn, but everything I learned broadened me and made me a better person in the long run.
Law school was much better, as everything was stuff I needed. But it was also worse, because I was narrowed into one field and did not get the wide range I did in college.
But yes, it can be "just a piece of paper" to some. If you feel that way, though, quit. College is not for everyone, and while leaving will close a lot of doors (fact of life unfortunately), you may be happier in the long run (and you may be able to force a few of the doors back open with drive and resolve).
Thinking about your posts
(and billing you for it) since 2001
Sure, a lot of it sucks, and you won't remember the details in ten years, but that's not the point. Undergraduate degrees aren't about specialization. Hell, these days, they're too often simply about teaching kids what they should've learned in high school. College is about learing to think, and about being exposed to a broad range of subjects.
Here's a little something I dug up that may answer your "is it worth it?" question:
As you can see, skipping college is only a good idea if you don't mind being at the bottom of earnings charts.
Unemployment figures are similar:
As you can see here, skipping college is only a good idea if you don't mind halving your chances of finding a job.
Finally, here's one that shows graduate and post-graduate comparisons:
This one is a bit old--I'm pretty sure the numbers are higher now, though in about the same proportion.
As a bonus, here's what it means to be a supervisor, as opposed to a grunt in America's workforce:
Impressive, no? Supervision is where the money's at, and you can't supervise without an education.
~~~
So, what do I recommend?
As someone with more school than is probably healthy--I finish my 3rd Master's degree this June, 
--I know the frustration you're experiencing firsthand. Sure, it sucks while it's happening, but it's worth it in the long run.
First, you have to correct your attitude. That's the main problem, it seems. Start looking for opportunities to learn. Go beyond the text, or the current assignment. Take classroom discussions deeper than they currently are.
Stop cheating.
That is no more than a way to guarantee you leave college with nothing to show for it. If the course is so damn easy, then ace it on your merits; otherwise, you've just wasted your money, and have no room to talk.
Next, if you really want to be an accountant, you'd damn well better start paying attention in class and learning the textbook version of things. Otherwise you haven't a prayer when you take the CPA exam. And you won't get good work as an accountant without passing the CPA. It's like trying to practice law without passing the Bar, or medicine without your Board Certificate. You might work on the fringes as a paralegal, or a nurse, but you won't ever be mainstream. Accounting is no different.
Finally, there's yet one more reason to wring as much from the college experience as you can: the future is uncertain. By specializing too much, too early--or, worse yet, coasting through without paying any attention--you'll be unprepared to capitalize upon opportunities in the future.
Only in formal education will you be exposed to a variety of subjects, and given the time and the assistance needed to understand them. The rest of the world values only a narrow set of skills, and won't give you the opportunity to make yourself marketable beyond them.
College is what you make of it. If you don't apply yourself, and decide you're too good for it, it will be useless. If you treat it like the golden opportunity it is, on the other hand, you'll lay the educational and social foundation for a successful, fulfilling life of gainful employment.
I'd be happy to answer more specific questions, and interested to hear more about your dilemma. Everyone goes through such doubts at one point or another in their four years, for a variety of reasons.
It's important, though, to shrug it off and move ahead.
{edit: typo} [ 02-11-2002: Message edited by: Bloodsage ]
--Satan, quoted by John Milton
You may not learn anything, I haven't learned much at all myself since I knew how to program in about 4 languages before I got into High School, and taught myself quite a few more since then, but having that almighty piece of paper corroborating that you know what you know is very important.
Thinking about your posts
(and billing you for it) since 2001
Even though I was only able to take a year because the government could care less about me going to college, even though they SAY it's importaint. If they thought it was such, they could have HELPED me go instead of giving me the bare *minimum* amount of aid. I couldn't afford to go, didn't win any scholorships because I was to stupid, and they'd rather grant them to kids who's mommies and daddies can fully pay for them anyways. No matter how many grants and government aid I applied for, half of them either siad "oh, an art college, oh well such a waist" Or my shit for brains guidence councelor "forgot" to send them in like she's supposed to.
but I'm not bitter or anything...
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PARTIES! 
Edit: Aanile - I'm planning on attending an art college because art is my life. [ 02-11-2002: Message edited by: Alleria Qui'farush ] So I always have fun with that subject...
That piece of paper only has value for employment. What goes into it, no matter how informative it is, is largely going to be wasted except for people going into specialized fields.
Ferrel, going for accounting, will need the textbook knowledge for the test. Then, it'll be largely forgotten, I'm sure.
As for me, yeah, I'm a Sophomore in the basic BS college, I'm sure there's a lot more that I'll actually find important once I move into a more specialized field of study.
Frankly, I want to be a Librarian and a Writer... Librarian until I actually have some success as a writer. I've listened in on the classes one takes for that field, they still don't impress me that much. Things'll probably change...
I'm not saying that college isn't important, because whether I like it or not, the world at large thinks it is important. What I'm saying is that the world at large has got serious problems with their point of view. Teaching stuff that's going to be forgotten is a monumental waste of time. Can you argue that? Seriously, I'm not trying to cause trouble, I would really like to know what the point of knowledge is if it's never ever going to be used, and more than likely to be forgotten.
Hell, I'm going to quote my linguistics teacher here. "This class is not easy, I don't expect many of you to pass because you're just here because this class is required for your major. Those of you that do pass, I don't expect you to remember anything you learn here."
So, tell me, please... what's the point?
quote:
Alleria Qui'farush had this to say about Jimmy Carter:
I believe that colleges are only good for one thing.....
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PARTIES!
Edit: Aanile - I'm planning on attending an art college because art is my life.
I feel the same. I wanted to major in Illustration and minor in graphic disign.
Oh well.. life goes on... college or not
quote:
Mooj wrote, obviously thinking too hard:
So, tell me, please... what's the point?
Because ignorance is mocked?
Seriously though, just because it doesnt pertain exactly to your job, dont dissmiss it as useless stuff. You probably don't have to know how to tie your shoes to do your job either, but it is good to know.
As for this "largely foregotten" You aren't learning anything, you're blatantly memorizing book information, most people can do that. Learning is going above and beyond memorization. And it is really becomming much more rare these days =p
"Learning" is nothing something anyone can force you to do, it's something you have to 'want' to do.
A lot of people who hire will look at how eager you are to actually 'learn' something. And yes, part of learning is the ability to remember standard facts, or know the style to write up a report/paper etc.
Those so called "useless" english classes you take are only what you make of them.
Depending what line of work you go into, college and highschool arent the only places that you will be required to write up reports. [ 02-11-2002: Message edited by: Reynar ]
And, as I quite obviously said in my earlier post:
quote:
Sure, a lot of it sucks, and you won't remember the details in ten years, but that's not the point. Undergraduate degrees aren't about specialization. Hell, these days, they're too often simply about teaching kids what they should've learned in high school. College is about learing to think, and about being exposed to a broad range of subjects.
Additionally, there's the very real problem of anyone at such a young age predicting exactly which knowledge they do or do not need for the rest of their lives . . . .
Nor is rote remembrance of facts remotely related to knowledge. College, if you do it right, will teach you how to think, how to question, how to explore possibilities. It will expose you to styles of thinking in a variety of fields. It will give you the tools to understand the world around you.
Sure, you can kick back in your classes, and assume there's no point, since you may or may not remember the details in ten years. And there truly won't have been a point--because you've missed it entirely.
It's not about being able to solve differential equations in later years; it's about understanding that rigorous mode of thought, and the situations where it might prove valuable. It's not about remembering it was actually a Scots hobbyist with no naval experience at all who devised the tactics Nelson used with such elan at Trafalgar; it's about knowing that truly great individuals recognize groundbreaking ideas wherever they find them.
Knowledge is more than remembered facts. Learning is more than remembering facts.
Finally, there's the point about adaptability I mentioned. Specializing too soon is not a good thing. As a matter of fact, liberal arts majors are now widely sought after in business, because they know how to adapt, and have learned how to think rather than simply how to plug numbers into a formula (as most engineers and business majors are taught).
Knowledge is power. Broader knowledge is more power.
Hope that addresses your point. [ 02-11-2002: Message edited by: Bloodsage ]
--Satan, quoted by John Milton
::saves a text file and keeps it preciously::
And my situation in a nutshell... To get an engineering degree you have to go through 2 years of sciences, and the fact I wouldn't use it in computer engineering pissed me off. Until now...
::humbly drinks from Bloodsage's college wisdom::
Thank you.
I'm really glad it helps.
--Satan, quoted by John Milton
"Don't want to sound like a fanboy, but I am with you. I'll buy it for sure, it's just a matter of for how long I will be playing it..."
- Silvast, Battle.net forums
College provides resources for you to learn. How much you actually learn, how you utilize those resources, is entirely up to you.
It would seem that you've chosen not to learn, which is sad 
