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Topic: Argrafarbal... need to get this out in the open
Sentow, Maybe
Pancake
posted 12-14-2001 11:16:06 AM
Six months from now, the U.S. will no longer be bound by the ABM treaty. For the uninitiated, ABM was to nuclear warfare what the Geneva convention was to conventional warfare.

As always, no political announcement can come unfettered by another episode of Good News/Bad News.

The Bad News.

Russia, India, and China are really not happy about this at all.

Some in the Bush administration speculate that China will react by increasing its aresenal.

The administration is demonstrating a flagrant disregard for Russia's concerns.

The Good News.

Though Russia dislikes the move (and rightly so, ya ask me), Vladimir Putin's criticism is thus far "tempered," and the Russian government had apparently expected this move for some time.

Russia is responding to the move with a show of trust - a downgrade of its arsenal.

The Bush administration has thus far stated it doesn't want a blanket defense, but a pinpoint defense. They're more interested in shooting down small groups of missles from "rogue states or organizations." Good call on that part, fellas.

So moving along.

Man. Between this, the PATRIOT Act, and the tribunals, I've begun to think that the administration needs to stop and take a breath.

Once more into the breach, my friends, once more. We'll close the wall with our dead. In peace, nothing so becomes a man as modesty and humility, but when the blast of war blows in our ears, then imitate the action of the tiger, summon up the blood, disguise fair nature with rage and lend the eye a terrible aspect.
Nae
Fun with Chocolate
posted 12-14-2001 11:18:31 AM
Yeah, I disagree with this decision as well. The BIG RED BUTTON scares me.

Chess anyone?


(subtle "Wargames" reference)

Azizza
VANDERSHANKED
posted 12-14-2001 11:21:03 AM
I kind of agree with dropping the ABM treaty. But I do also see your point. WHile I believe that the administration is doing well overall there are some things that bother me a bit and I hope they change.
I honestly think me need the point defense system. While a lot of the danger will come from land based attacks there is still a chane of missle launched warheads from places like chana. A Defense system could save a lot of people there..

Now if only Clinton would not have sold some of our nuclear secrets to the Chinese......

"Pacifism is a privilege of the protected"
Sentow, Maybe
Pancake
posted 12-14-2001 11:21:07 AM
quote:
Check out the big brain on Illanae!
Yeah, I disagree with this decision as well. The BIG RED BUTTON scares me.

Chess anyone?


(subtle "Wargames" reference)


The only winning move is not to play.

Stunning. I love that movie.

Once more into the breach, my friends, once more. We'll close the wall with our dead. In peace, nothing so becomes a man as modesty and humility, but when the blast of war blows in our ears, then imitate the action of the tiger, summon up the blood, disguise fair nature with rage and lend the eye a terrible aspect.
Drysart
Pancake
posted 12-14-2001 11:21:19 AM
Don't worry, once bin Laden's dead or captured, public support for the war on terrorism will quickly fall and Bush's popularity will once again fall (just like his dad) to pre-September 11th levels, or lower once former supporters of his wake up and see the things he's been pushing through under the guise of combating terrorism.

Don't blame me, I voted for Gore, and so did most of your fellow Americans.

Sentow, Maybe
Pancake
posted 12-14-2001 11:25:40 AM
quote:
Drysart impressed everyone with:
Don't worry, once bin Laden's dead or captured, public support for the war on terrorism will quickly fall and Bush's popularity will once again fall (just like his dad) to pre-September 11th levels, or lower once former supporters of his wake up and see the things he's been pushing through under the guise of combating terrorism.

Don't blame me, I voted for Gore, and so did most of your fellow Americans.


I find that rather condescending.

Besides, I did the real American thing and voted for Nader

Once more into the breach, my friends, once more. We'll close the wall with our dead. In peace, nothing so becomes a man as modesty and humility, but when the blast of war blows in our ears, then imitate the action of the tiger, summon up the blood, disguise fair nature with rage and lend the eye a terrible aspect.
Drysart
Pancake
posted 12-14-2001 11:28:54 AM
quote:
Sentow thought this was the Ricky Martin Fan Club Forum and wrote:
I find that rather condescending.

Besides, I did the real American thing and voted for Nader


Oh, you voted for Bush?

Trillee
I <3 My Deviant
posted 12-14-2001 11:29:21 AM
I hear Australia's nice this time of year...
Sentow, Maybe
Pancake
posted 12-14-2001 11:42:49 AM
quote:
Drysart had this to say about Cuba:
Oh, you voted for Bush?

Pshaw, foolish mortal! We were shooting for the 5% percent of the vote Nader needed to get larger campaign funds in the next election.
And, you're a doody-head!

Once more into the breach, my friends, once more. We'll close the wall with our dead. In peace, nothing so becomes a man as modesty and humility, but when the blast of war blows in our ears, then imitate the action of the tiger, summon up the blood, disguise fair nature with rage and lend the eye a terrible aspect.
Mortious
Gluttonous Overlard
posted 12-14-2001 11:47:07 AM
*computerised voice*

How. About. A. Nice. Game. Of. Chess?

Piper
Rabid Druid
posted 12-14-2001 11:52:07 AM
quote:
Drysart had this to say about dark elf butts:
Don't worry, once bin Laden's dead or captured, public support for the war on terrorism will quickly fall and Bush's popularity will once again fall (just like his dad) to pre-September 11th levels, or lower once former supporters of his wake up and see the things he's been pushing through under the guise of combating terrorism.

Don't blame me, I voted for Gore, and so did most of your fellow Americans.


>_<
>_<
>_<
>_<
>_<


PIPERPOWER
What?! I was talking about the fish you crazy bastard!
Aure entuluva! ...or at least I hope.
Lalamile
My title doesn't even make sense any more
posted 12-14-2001 12:03:26 PM
Sometimes I wish thoese 2% of people woun't have voted for Nader, (even though he was the best) they would have made it so we would have Gore for peresidnt.
Piper
Rabid Druid
posted 12-14-2001 12:19:12 PM
quote:
Lalamile had this to say about John Romero:
Gore for peresidnt.

you could get a job on the Gore campaign marketing squad!


PIPERPOWER
What?! I was talking about the fish you crazy bastard!
Aure entuluva! ...or at least I hope.
Bloodcookie
Pancake
posted 12-14-2001 12:36:52 PM
Funny thing is, America never got rid of its BIG RED BUTTON. We've been on 24/7/365 nuclear alert ever since the cold war. Now, although I hate to support anything Bush does, I don't think this decision will do anything but increase our defensive capabilities, which isn't a bad thing.

Oh, and you all should have voted for McReynolds.


""...destructive analysis of the familiar is the only method of approach to an understanding of fundamentally different modes of expression." -Edward Sapir, Language
ZaÂ’afiel
Coolest Hamster Pimp Ever!
posted 12-14-2001 12:53:19 PM
quote:
Bloodcookie had this to say about pies:
24/7/365

365 weeks in a year ?

sorry i like taking cheap shots

"Consistancy is the hobgoblin of little minds."
-Ralph Waldo Emerson
Cadga
Quite Insane
posted 12-14-2001 12:59:16 PM
id rather have a furry as president than gore

srry

Professional Sinner/Heretic
My mindless dribble
Karnaj
Road Warrior Queef
posted 12-14-2001 01:17:59 PM
Overall, I may want a Democrat in office, but I'm sure as hell glad that there was a Republican in office when 9/11 happened.
That's the American Dream: to make your life into something you can sell. - Chuck Palahniuk, Haunted

Under capitalism, man exploits man. Under communism, it's just the opposite. - John Kenneth Galbraith



Beer.

Razor
posted 12-14-2001 01:22:23 PM
You practically cant tell the difference between the two major parties anymore. Vote Libretarian or Commie
Astronomy is a passion...
Engineering is a love...
My job isn't a job, it's my career, and I love every minute of it: Observatory Superintendent
Lashanna
noob
posted 12-14-2001 01:31:43 PM
quote:
Azizza had this to say about Jimmy Carter:
Now if only Clinton would not have sold some of our nuclear secrets to the Chinese......

You're referring to that Chinese scientist who sold "the Nuclear Secrets," right?

The guy was a scientist who'd been employed by the US government by Reagan's administration...

Besides, We've lost a hard drive that stored missile and weapons blueprints for 8 months because it had fallen behind a shelf...

Dad's going to kill you. Really. He is.
Gydyon
Yes, I am a lawyer. No you can't sue them for that. Shut up, or I'll have your legs broken.
posted 12-14-2001 01:59:49 PM
quote:
Sentow had this to say about dark elf butts:
Pshaw, foolish mortal! We were shooting for the 5% percent of the vote Nader needed to get larger campaign funds in the next election.
And, you're a doody-head!

I sent Nader roses the day after the election.

No, really, I did. I was part of the ABG contingent, Anyone But Gore, and he really helped out with that.

Gydyon
Evercrest Lawyer

Thinking about your posts
(and billing you for it) since 2001

Azizza
VANDERSHANKED
posted 12-14-2001 04:49:58 PM
LOL well As for Bore. Uhh I mean Gore.. Even hs closest supporters have said that he woudl have done a terrible job in this situation.

If he was in officer we would be appologising to Bin Laden and paying him money for the families of the terrorist who dies in the attack while telling the American people how we got what we deserved for being such cruel people.

I still think Clinton, Gore, and Reno should be brough up on charges for all that they did durring thier attempt to ruin america..

"Pacifism is a privilege of the protected"
Azizza
VANDERSHANKED
posted 12-14-2001 04:58:40 PM
quote:
Lashanna had this to say about Jimmy Carter:
You're referring to that Chinese scientist who sold "the Nuclear Secrets," right?

The guy was a scientist who'd been employed by the US government by Reagan's administration...

Besides, We've lost a hard drive that stored missile and weapons blueprints for 8 months because it had fallen behind a shelf...


Actually no I am refering to Clinton and his constant attempt to undermine the Security of America. Let me find the name of a book that I highly recomend.
.
.
.
Ahh Here we go...
"The Final Days"
Author Barbara Olson

I will note that this is a wonderful book and the author was one of the people to die onboard the planes that crashed into the World Trade Center.


Also lets not forget Waco, Ruby Ridge, etc. I would jhust as soon not have anyone from that administration back in office, thank you very much..

"Pacifism is a privilege of the protected"
/dev/null
Pancake
posted 12-14-2001 05:10:57 PM
Personally, I feel it's a good move. The arms race that lead to this initial ban was between 2 countries. Only 2 countries had the power and the capabilities to deploy signifigant number of ICBMs. Since then the scales have tipped. America is pretty much the lead dog now. Russia is still there, but it's been shot in the ass. Being in the lead makes you the biggest target. Now that MULTIPLE other countries are bringing nukes on line it's time to reconsider our position.
Beep. Beep. Beep... Ohh... I think my porridge is done.
My fellow Americans, as you know, my foreign policy can be summed up in five words: "Iludium-236 Explosive Space Modulator."
When it comes down to it, searching the web without Google is like straining sewage with your teeth.
OtakuPenguin
Peels like a tangerine, but is juicy like an orange.
posted 12-14-2001 08:50:36 PM
Good call withdrawing from the ABMT. I think we need to be prepared for more agressiveness from Terrorist places (North Korea, some Arab countries etc...)

Since this was brought up, I'll express my [bold]OPINION[/bold]

Bush rocks, he is handling this situation VERY well. He has been an excellent President, and already, in his about a year in office, has done more good then Clinton did in his 8 years. And he sure as hell hasn't embarassed the country by having sex with some intern, while, might I add, married!

..:: This Is The Sound Of Settling ::..
OtakuPenguin
Peels like a tangerine, but is juicy like an orange.
posted 12-14-2001 08:51:35 PM
Good call withdrawing from the ABMT. I think we need to be prepared for more agressiveness from Terrorist places (North Korea, some Arab countries etc...)

Since this was brought up, I'll express my OPINION

Bush rocks, he is handling this situation VERY well. He has been an excellent President, and already, in his about a year in office, has done more good then Clinton did in his 8 years. And he sure as hell hasn't embarassed the country by having sex with some intern, while, might I add, married!

..:: This Is The Sound Of Settling ::..
Koska Kintaro
Not Banned Yet
posted 12-14-2001 09:26:28 PM
For starters, military tribunals are nothing new.

Our own servicemen face them at court martials and military hearings. They were ratified by the government under the Constitution. They are in no sense un-constitutional.

Secondly, repealing the ABM treaty doesn't mean we're suddenly going to start chucking nukes left and right. Hell it doesn't even mean we're actually going to stock any actual weapons.

It's nothing more than a political statement. A friendly reminder to the would-be terrorists of the world of who the last remaining global superpower really is. In the diplomatic sense, this is tantamount to looking them in the eye and saying "You do realize we can nuke you, don't you?"

Lashanna
noob
posted 12-14-2001 09:42:41 PM
Actually, the ABMT also wouldn't support Bush's Missile Defense Systems (Heh), because of the fear at the time that a missile defense system would ruin MAD.
If one country could nuke, and hide behind it's MDS, then MAD would fall apart. Not to mention, OtakuPeng, sorry to be so negative, but WHY would most of those terrorists use missiles? Missiles are much more costly and difficult to launch (especially because of the US's Geographic location in comparison to theirs...), and the subtle terrorism has been working perfectly fine for them so far (and I can assure they have qualms about losing men on sucide missions, ).

If anything a Missile Defense System would be something that would most likely be used to defend against China...
And, well, when we announced we were dropping the ABMT and working on our MDS, China stated it would increase it's nuclear stockpile...

Ruby Ridge was Clinton's fault? And that book doesn't count as an adequate defense, Azizza, . Explain to me, in detail, how President Clinton undermining national security and selling our Nuclear Secrets to China.

Dad's going to kill you. Really. He is.
Pvednes
Lynched
posted 12-14-2001 09:43:49 PM
quote:
Aanile had this to say about Captain Planet:
I hear Australia's nice this time of year...

Mmhmm, quite.

Koska Kintaro
Not Banned Yet
posted 12-14-2001 10:05:45 PM
I'm sorry, but I see a vote for Gore or any other democrat as a vote for the Soccer Mom's and I'm-Special-Give-Me-Money-Minorities of the world. It's the democrats who cut military spending down to nothing. It's the democrats who wanted to disarm America. It's the democrats who cut military funding to shreds, and it's the Democrats who believe American money is better invested in American Government than in Americans. Big Government = Bad. Very bad.

They don't call them bleeding hearts for nothing.

These people OVERCHARGED US several billion dollars, and would have kept it.

Sarudani Miolnir
Old-school poster
posted 12-14-2001 10:15:35 PM
Pvednes
Lynched
posted 12-14-2001 10:20:57 PM
quote:
The Otaku Penguin had this to say about Pirotess:
Bush rocks, he is handling this situation VERY well. He has been an excellent President, and already, in his about a year in office, has done more good then Clinton did in his 8 years. And he sure as hell hasn't embarassed the country by having sex with some intern, while, might I add, married!

Hrmm.

Having your leader declare a "War" without your congress actually declaring it, and backing out of a treaty designed to stop us destroying ourselves with weapons of mass destruction is more embarrasing to your country than your president being unable to keep his zipper up, in my opinion.

[ 12-14-2001: Message edited by: Pvednes Phoenixfeather ]

Kel
Pancake
posted 12-14-2001 10:31:52 PM
I refuse to have an opinion about the presidency during this administration. I didn't vote in the presidential election... voted on everything else on the ballot, but not on the presidential election.

Just didn't like any of my choices.

Since I have elected to excercise my right not to choose, I will continue doing so.

I'm more disturbed by the fact that people haven't reacted more positively to the way that this war was started. Terrorism only works through fear. The American public is scared, ergo, open to more terrorism.

Come on people... the worst they can do is kill you... everything else you do to yourself.

Do you believe in fondue? You know you do.
If you look deep within your heart you will find... melted cheese.
All times are US/Eastern
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