What I'd like is opinions on the different systems, including which system will likely work best, and any suggestions that might improve a particular system.
quote:
DC by Action: Version 1
Feat: Glide
Allows a winged character to glide on air currents. Wings may be natural or crafted (as a glider, or as magic shield of cost equivalent to Tower Shield of equal enchantment).
Prerequisite: Str 8, Dex 8, Wings
Benefit: Character can glide on air, traveling straight down or at a downward angle of 30° or steeper. Falls over 10' take no damage.
Normal: Wings cannot be used to support the character's weight. The character may not use the skill Aerobatics.
Special: Character must carry a LIGHT load to use this feat. Characters with this feat are automatically considered trained (for 0 skill points) in Aerobatics skill.Skill: Aerobatics (Dex, Trained Only*, Armor Check Penalty)
Use this skill to maneuver while in the air.
Check:
DC = Action
5 = Descending glide (as per the Glide feat)
10 = Glide horizontal
15 = Sudden stop
15 = Lift off from run
15 = Gain altitude
15 = Change direction mid-glide
15 = Precise landing
20 = Resume glide after sudden stop
20 = Dive & swoop
25 = Righting reflex**
30 = Lift off from stop
-3 = Per size below medium
-1 = Per +1 enchantment of crafted magical wings
+0.5 = Per hp normal damage taken prior to flight
+1 = Per hp of normal damage taken during the current flight
+1 = Per point of dodge bonus to AC kept during flight***
+1 = Per 10 minutes completed flight****
+3 = Per size above medium
+5 = Using non-magical glider
+5 = Flying in heavy precipitation
+10 = Flying against storm winds
+15 = Wing broken or torn
Retry: If a character fails a DC check, she falls a distance of 10 ft per failed Aerobatics check (cumulative), and must use righting reflex (DC 25) to resume a descending glide.
Special: A character with +5 or more in Tumble gains a +2 synergy bonus to Aerobatics checks.
*Must have Glide feat to use this skill.
**Righting reflex used if a skill check is failed while the character is airborne, or if DC conditions exceed the last rolled Aerobatics check.
***Success margin = AC dodge bonus retained, up to character's grounded maximum.
****A new check must be made for every 10 minutes of flight. DC checks allow success at any action (except righting reflex) for which the DC roll succeeds until the next check is made.
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DC by Action: Version 2
Skill: Aerobatics (Dex, Trained Only*, Armor Check Penalty)
Use this skill to maneuver while in the air.
Check:
DC = Action
5 = Descending glide
10 = Glide horizontal
15 = Sudden stop
15 = Lift off from run
15 = Gain altitude
15 = Change direction mid-glide
15 = Precise landing
20 = Resume glide after sudden stop
20 = Dive & swoop
25 = Righting reflex**
30 = Lift off from stop
-3 = Per size below medium
-1 = Per +1 enchantment of crafted magical wings
+0.5 = Per hp normal damage taken prior to flight
+1 = Per hp of normal damage taken during the current flight
+1 = Per point of dodge bonus to AC kept during flight***
+1 = Per 10 minutes completed flight****
+3 = Per size above medium
+5 = Using non-magical glider
+5 = Flying in heavy precipitation
+10 = Flying against storm winds
+15 = Wing broken or torn
Retry: If a character fails a DC check, she falls a distance of 10 ft per failed Aerobatics check (cumulative), and must use righting reflex (DC 25) to resume a descending glide.
Special: A character with +5 or more in Tumble gains a +2 synergy bonus to Aerobatics checks. Character must carry a LIGHT load to use this skill.
*A character must have some means of flight (such as wings, a glider, or a Ring of Flight) in order to learn or use this skill.
**Righting reflex used if a skill check is failed while the character is airborne, or if DC conditions exceed the last rolled Aerobatics check.
***Success margin = AC dodge bonus retained, up to character's grounded maximum.
****A new check must be made for every 10 minutes of flight. DC checks allow success at any action (except righting reflex) for which the DC roll succeeds until the next check is made.
quote:
Roll-Free Skill System
Skill: Flight (Dex, Trained Only*, Armor Check Penalty)
Use this skill to maneuver while in the air.
Difficulty**:
Skill = Action / State
1 = Horizontal Glide at 1/2 to full speed
2 = Descend at an angle down to 45° (full to double speed)
3 = Turn 45° over a distance of 10 ft.
4 = Climb after 20 ft horizontal glide (up to 30° angle, 1/2 speed)
5 = Maneuverability Class: CLUMSY
6 = Climb after 15 ft horizontal glide (up to 45° angle, 1/2 speed)
7 = Turn 45° over a distance of 5 ft.
9 = Climb after 10 ft horizontal glide (up to 45° angle, 1/2 speed)
10 = Maneuverability Class: POOR
11 = Turn in place up to 45° (at a cost of 10 ft from movement rate)
12 = Turn 90° over a distance of 10 ft.
13 = Climb after 5 ft horizontal glide (up to 60° angle, 1/2 speed)
14 = Descend at any angle (full to double speed)
15 = Turn in place up to 45° (at a cost of 5 ft from movement rate)
16 = Maneuverability Class: AVERAGE
17 = Turn in place up to 90° (at a cost of 10 ft from movement rate)
18 = Descend at any angle (up to double speed)
19 = Turn 90° over a distance of 5 ft.
21 = Hover in place. Unlimited turn angles.
22 = Ascend at any angle (up to 1/2 speed)
23 = Turn in place (at a cost of 5 ft from movement rate per 90°)
24 = Fly in reverse (at a cost of 5 ft from movement rate)
26 = Maneuverability Class: GOOD
29 = Ascend at any angle (up to full speed)
32 = Turn in place at no cost to movement rate (unlimited angle)
36 = Maneuverability Class: PERFECT
+0 = Carrying a Light load
+6 = Carrying a Medium load
+20 = Carrying a Heavy load
+VAR = Wind Conditions (effects vary by wind speed and character size)
Retry: None
Special: Characters who achieve a maneuverability class retain their dodge bonuses to AC while performing actions of lower DC than their maneuverability class.
*A character must have some means of flight (such as wings, a glider, or a Ring of Flight) in order to learn or use this skill.
**No rolls are made for this skill. The DC which a character can achieve is equal to the sum of her bonuses, penalties, and the skill points she has awarded to this skill.
Flight is considered a class skill for druids, rangers, and rogues who meet the skill's other criteria.
quote:The DC by Action system is heavily roll intensive, but allows easy rebalancing, as well as tayloring to specific situations. The roll-free skill system works with maneuverability classes, and makes flight a learned skill. Maneuverability as feats is more dependent on a characters dexterity than on a level of development, but it offers a similar degree of control and stability to the roll-free skill system, and adheres more strictly to the standard Third Edition system.
Feat System
Feat: Fly Clumsy
Allows the most basic flight maneuvers, equal to the Clumsy maneuverability class.
Prerequisite: Dex 8, Wings or Glider
Benefit:
:: Character can fly forward at between 1/2 and full flight movement rate.
:: Character can turn at an angle of up to 45° over a distance of 10 ft, once per round.
:: Character can ascend at 1/2 her movement rate, up to an angle of 30°, after a horizontal glide of 20 ft.
:: Character can descend at full to double her movement rate, at an angle down to 45°
Normal: Characters can only use wings for a descending glide at her full movement rate, down to an angle of 30°.
Special: This feat is awarded automatically to any winged character or creature. Characters using gliders must take this feat.Feat: Fly Poor
Allows reasonable maneuvering, equal to the Poor maneuverability class.
Prerequisite: Dex 12, Wings or Glider, Maneuver Clumsy
Benefit:
:: Character can fly forward at between 1/2 and full flight movement rate.
:: Character can turn at an angle of up to 45° over a distance of 5 ft, once per round.
:: Character can ascend at 1/2 her movement rate, up to an angle of 45°, after a horizontal glide of 10 ft.
:: Character can descend at full to double her movement rate, at an angle down to 45°Feat: Fly Average
Allows decent maneuvering, equal to the Average maneuverability class.
Prerequisite: Dex 16, Wings or Magical Flight Item, Fly Poor
Benefit:
:: Character can fly forward at between 1/2 and full flight movement rate.
:: Character can turn at an angle of up to 45° over a distance of 5 ft, twice per round.
:: Character can turn in place at an angle of up to 45°, at a cost of 5 ft from her movement rate, in place of an in-motion turn.
:: Character can ascend at 1/2 her movement rate, up to an angle of 60°, after a horizontal glide of 5 ft.
:: Character can descend at full to double her movement rate, at an angle down to 45°Feat: Fly Well
Allows advanced aerial maneuvering, equal to the Good maneuverability class.
Prerequisite: Dex 20, Wings or Magical Flight Item, Fly Average
Benefit:
:: Character can fly forward at up to full flight movement rate.
:: Character can hover in place.
:: Character can turn at an angle of up to 90° over a distance of 5 ft, up to her movement rate.
:: Character can turn in place at an angle of up to 90°, at a cost of 5 ft from her movement rate, in place of an in-motion turn.
:: Character can ascend at up to 1/2 her movement rate, at any angle.
:: Character can descend at up to double her movement rate, at an angle.
Special: This feat is awarded temporarily by the spell FLY, even if the subject does not meet the other prerequisites.Feat: Fly Perfectly
Allows precision aerial maneuvering, equal to the Perfect maneuverability class.
Prerequisite: Dex 25, Magical Flight, Fly Well
Benefit:
:: Character can fly in any direction or vertical angle at up to full flight movement rate.
:: Character can hover in place.
:: Character can turn in place at no cost to her movement rate.
:: Character can descend at up to double her movement rate, at an angle.Feat: Weighted Flight
Allows a character to fly while carring a burden.
Prerequisite: Str 12, Dex 12, Fly Poor
Benefit: Character can fly while carrying a Medium burden. Character gains one size class when flying with a medium burden, but loses one maneuverability class.
Normal: Character can only fly when carring a Light burden, or no burden at all.
Special: A character with this feat can use it at will. If the character's weight burden does not require use of this feat, the character may choose not to use it.Feat: Burdened Flight
Allows a character to fly while carring an excessive burden and battle extreme wind conditions.
Prerequisite: Str 18, Dex 12, Fly Average
Benefit: Character can fly while carrying a Heavy burden. Character gains one size class regardless of burden, and a second size class when carrying a Heavy burden, but loses two maneuverability classes.
Normal: Character can only fly when carring a Light burden, or no burden at all.
Special: A character with this feat can use it at will. If the character's weight burden does not require use of this feat, the character may choose not to use it.
[ 11-01-2001: Message edited by: Ford Prefect ]
I really like the roll-free skill system. Make flying much more dependable and safer. Even better though, in the spirit of 3e, is the feat system. I like it the best because it makes it simple to the player where they stand.
Couple of ideas...could we also have a swinging dive that would allow player to do damage to an enemy (probably of large/giant size) by dropping signicantly and increasing speed. The obvious downside is that you end up with much more risk and hitting someone would require some kind of system for checking if they take damage and if you suddenly fall flat on your face.
I would also like to see a gliding item that would allow one winged person to carry another person with no wings. The carried person would have to be, at largest, medium size and would damper flight for the flier. Maybe like some kind of carrying pouch...
I'd love to combine the swinging dive and the pouch...get some Gnome to trust me then let him go at my enemy. 
Yes, that's right, hot live sex!quote:
WaisztarrozBarrimas wrote this stupid crap:
Couple of ideas...could we also have a swinging dive that would allow player to do damage to an enemy (probably of large/giant size) by dropping signicantly and increasing speed. The obvious downside is that you end up with much more risk and hitting someone would require some kind of system for checking if they take damage and if you suddenly fall flat on your face.
quote:Sounds about right.
This feat is straight out of the Monster Manual:
Feat: Flyby Attack
The creature can attack on the wing.
Prerequisite: Fly speed
Benefit: When flying, the creature can take a move action (including a dive) and another partial action at any point during the move. The creature cannot take a second move action during the round when it makes a flyby attack.
Normal: Without this feat, the creature takes its partial action either before or after its move.
[ 11-01-2001: Message edited by: Ford Prefect ]
I'd use a toned-down version of the feat-system rules, with a strenuous stipulation that *I* would determine a case-by-case balance of whether something works or not. Then I'd write down each situation, and through that build a common-sense guideline on how I handle flying.
I don't like the idea of flight-enabled PCs, though - too hard to build a challenge for, especially non-combat ones, when a dive-bomb can work. So this may have something to do with my restrictive judgement.
Disallow the righting reflex after a certain number of feet fallen. Wings, natural or no, aren't made to take the kind of punishment such a buildup of momentum would deal to them. If anything, add to the DC of the righting reflex after a certain number of feet fallen, which would be cumulative until a certain point where it's just plain impossible.
Just some suggestions. Overall, it looks nice.
And I have to agree with Deth on this. I don't agree with any of them.
This would be like taking my 3e half sea dragon/half elf monk Lia and telling her she needs to have these feats or roll this in order to be able to swim this way or that way.
She's been able to swim since birth. And in most cases, flying PCs have been able to fly all their lives. Why make it more complicated by bringing in all this?
Lyinar Ka`Bael, Piney Fresh Druidess - Luclin
As it stands, I wouldn't even put in a flying race in my game, much less create goofy rules to dictate what they can do
quote:In the feat system, naturally flying characters will receive a feat for free with an appropriate maneuverability class (though not the best one their class is capable of). They would receive a bonus in either of the skill-based systems (and would receive GLIDE for free in the first system shown). This also allows for characters who manage to fly by different means. For example, someone who's spent years training with a glider won't still be tied to the same maneuverability class that an amateur would be. Magic items can award fixed skill levels or free temporary feats. And then there's other creative ways a character could learn to fly (one of which was brought to my attention recently, for which these systems all manage to compensate, but I won't say what it is because I want the players to think of it themselves).
Lyinar stumbled drunkenly to the keyboard and typed:
She's been able to swim since birth. And in most cases, flying PCs have been able to fly all their lives. Why make it more complicated by bringing in all this?
So it'd be like your character (who has been swimming since birth) receiving a sizeable bonus to swim checks. And I'm guessing that's what happened (since Swimming is a skill). When you start holding different PCs to different systems, you bring a whole new set of problems into race balancing.
quote:You've already said that you detest anything that deviates from the standard rules and standard systems.
Mr. Parcelan had this to say about Reading Rainbow:
If PCs were meant to fly, they'd have been born with Winged Boots.As it stands, I wouldn't even put in a flying race in my game, much less create goofy rules to dictate what they can do
quote:
Mr. Parcelan had this to say about Cuba:
Bah. Why is it that every DM feels the need to tread off the beaten path? What's this altering character rules? No modules?Pfah, I say!
Sometimes, the best games are traditional...
...to a point! None of this 2nd Ed shit, y'hear?
quote:
Ford Prefect had this to say about Reading Rainbow:So it'd be like your character (who has been swimming since birth) receiving a sizeable bonus to swim checks. And I'm guessing that's what happened (since Swimming is a skill). When you start holding different PCs to different systems, you bring a whole new set of problems into race balancing.[/QB]
I don't even think Deth DOES swimming skill checks. He just assumes since she's half sea dragon, she can swim well enough and doesn't need them.
He concentrates on more important things, like roleplaying, and doesn't try to crowd the game down with dice and rolls and checks all the time.
Lyinar Ka`Bael, Piney Fresh Druidess - Luclin
Characters won't have to worry about making sure they have enough skill points in flying. There's a lot of skills in 3E and the skill system would just hinder having a well-rounded individual.
Lyinar Ka`Bael, Piney Fresh Druidess - Luclin
I still prefer the feat system to the others, but I agree with Parc's statement - adding a flight system just makes improvisation and imagination less likely to be used. People will resort to "LIFT OFF!" instead of more interesting plans.
Geek code version 3.12: GO d-(--) s-:- a--- C++ w PS+ PE- t--- 5? R+ tv+ b+++ DI+++ G- e* h r++ x?quote:If used, this system would apply to PCs only. Monsters and NPCs would continue to use the standard maneuverability classes.
Feat: Basic Flight
Allows the most basic flight maneuvers.
Prerequisite: Dex 6, Wings or Glider
Benefit:
:: Character can fly forward at between 1/2 and full flight movement rate.
:: Character can turn at an angle of up to 45° over a distance of 10 ft, once per round.
:: Character can ascend at (exactly) 1/2 her movement rate, up to an angle of 30°, after flying level for 20 ft.
:: Character can descend at between full and double her movement rate, down to an angle of 45°
Normal: Character can only use wings for a descending glide at her full movement rate, at a downward angle of 10° to 30°.
Special: Descending at double movement rate (without turning) is considered an airborne charge.Feat: Aerobatics
Allows decent maneuvering, and the performance of basic airborne stunts.
Prerequisite: Dex 12, Str 4, Wings or Magical Flight, Basic Flight Feat
Benefit:
:: Character can turn at an angle of up to 45° over a distance of 5 ft, three times per round.
:: Character can turn in place at an angle of up to 45°, at a cost of 5 ft from her movement rate, in lieu of an in-motion turn.
:: Character can ascend at 1/2 her movement rate, up to an angle of 60°.
:: Character can descend at 1/2 to double her movement rate down to an angle of 30°, at full to double her movement rate down to an angle of 60°, or at (exactly) double her movement rate at any angle.
:: Character can roll over (flip or spin, but not turn) 180°, in lieu of an in-motion turn. Rolling takes a distance of 5 ft, plus 5 ft for recovery*.
Special: *The character must change direction or orientation to 'right' herself immediately before or after a roll. A vertical somersault (over or under) counts as rolling over twice.Feat: Rapid Wings
Characters who learn this feat can flap their wings fast enough to hover in place.
Prerequisite: Dex 16, Str 6, Wings or Magical Flight, Aerobatics Feat
Benefit:
:: Character can hover in place, or move at any speed up to her full movement rate.
:: Character can turn at an angle of up to 90° over a distance of 5 ft, up to her movement rate*.
:: Character can turn in place at an angle of up to 90°, at a cost of 5 ft from her movement rate, in lieu of an in-motion turn.
:: Character can ascend at up to 1/2 her movement rate, at any angle.
:: Character can descend at up to double her movement rate, at an angle.
Special: This feat is awarded temporarily by the spell FLY, even if the subject does not meet the other prerequisites.
*Actions listed under Aerobatics may also be executed up to the character's movement rate, provided the character has the Aerobatics prerequisite.Feat: Ignore Physics
This feat allows the character to maneuver in flight as if gravity and momentum are voluntary.
Prerequisite: Magical Flight*
Benefit:
:: Character can hover in place.
:: Character can fly in any direction or vertical angle at up to full flight movement rate.
:: Character can turn in place at no cost to her movement rate.
:: Character can descend at up to double her movement rate, at any angle.
Special: *This feat is only available for certain creatures or circumstances, at the discretion of the GM.Feat: Burdened Flight
Allows a character to fly while carring an excessive burden, and battle extreme wind conditions.
Prerequisite: Str 14, One Fly Feat from {Aerobatics, Rapid Wings, Ignore Physics}
Benefit: Character can fly while carrying a Medium or Heavy burden. Character gains one size class* regardless of burden, plus a second size class when carrying a Heavy burden, and maneuvers as per the Basic Flight feat.
Normal: Character can only fly when carring a Light burden, or no burden at all.
Special: A character with this feat can use it at will. If the character's weight burden does not require use of this feat, the character may choose not to use it.
*This feat inflicts a -1 penalty to AC and a -1 penalty to attack rolls per size class increase. Characters of larger size are less likely to be blown back by high winds. Size class increases from this feat do not alter which weapons and armor a character can use.Feat: Flyby Attack
The creature can attack on the wing.
Prerequisite: Wings or Magical Flight Item, One Fly Feat from {Basic Flight, Aerobatics, Rapid Wings, Ignore Physics}
Benefit: When flying, the creature can take a move action (including a dive) and another partial action at any point during the move. The creature cannot take a second move action during the round when it makes a flyby attack.
Normal: Without this feat, the creature takes its partial action either before or after its move.
Something to consider when deciding between skills or feats: [ 11-06-2001: Message edited by: Ford Prefect ]
Feats favor fighters (and only fighters), who get a significant number of bonus feats. (While flight feats could not be taken as bonus feats, the cost is nonetheless dampened.) On the up side, feats do not show particular disfavor to any class.
Skills favor rogues, particularly those with high intelligence, and penalize classes that receive few skill points.
