Here we go.
(Note: He doesn't have access because Drysart is busy with other things at the moment!)
"BR 17 MAX LFS" That's generally how my brief time in the Planetside Beta would look. In case you didn't know, I am a high-powered* attorney who spends a lot of my time in an office. A lot of my time in front of a "computer" that barely runs Outlook and Internet Explorer, let alone games. Hey, don't feel bad for me, it's the life I chose. It makes me someone who I would think is very common in the world today -- the casual gamer. I want to ask a question, though. Are there any games for me out there anymore? I love, love, love being part of an online community. Heck, I played an EQ druid for nearly two years in a nearly full roleplaying fashion, and got him up to level 39. I was an officer in a roleplaying guild, I played nearly every night for hours, and I had a great time. But then I advanced at the office, and met my future wife, and I simply didn't have time to play EQ four hours a day anymore. (Also, the game mechanics and levelling treadmill were finally getting to me). Now, over a year later, I realized something. Games just aren't made for me anymore. The casual gamer has, in my opinion, become obsolete. Don't agree with me? Fine, let's debate, that's what the forums are for. But look at the facts I am considering: Shooters and other single-player games tend to be designed for the "twitch" gamer, the kind of person who has months and years to refine their skills at shooting and working a myriad of controls at once, or is 15 and still has reflexes (hell, I couldn't finish Half-Life, and anyone who's seen me play Counterstrike knows what I am talking about regarding my decided lack of skillz). Real-time strategy was always my favorite, but the genre has gotten repetitive. Don't even bring up The Sims. And anyway, single player is fun, but what I really want is a game where I can embrace an online community within my schedule. So I turn to the multiplayer community, hoping there will be something for me. And what do I find? Lets look at some recent examples from my past. Return to Castle Wolfenstein multiplayer was OK, but nobody I know plays anymore. BF1942 required too much twitch. So did Planetside, as well as a significant time commitment to level up, get certifications, and learn the game (since I don't do twitch, "grab a gun and go" has little appeal). AO, DAOC and EQ all tired me out because of the leveling treadmill and, again, the time commitment it takes to advance and keep up with your community. EQ2, Shadowbane (hah), Horizons (hah), and WoW don't give me much hope of significant improvement. In any case, many of my friends are not casual gamers, and they burn through games like my law firm burms through toner. 9 times out of 10, they have moved on to the new game before I've figured out the controls and strategy for the current one. I would like to occasionally lend to EC the "casual gamers" perspective to games I purchase and play if the Powers That Be allow, so let's start the dialogue in the forums. What do you think? Am I relegated to online poker and Sony Station games because I don't have 5-10 hours a day to play? Is there hope? Frankly, I don't see any. I guess I will just have keep waiting for Dawn. Dawn will answer all my doubts.** *may not actually be high-powered **vaporware does not actually answer any doubts
"BR 12 stealth LFS"
"Reaver squad looking for more, experienced pilots only"
[ 05-29-2003: Message edited by: Drysart ]
quote:
Nwizzle Fo' Shizzle had this to say about Matthew Broderick:
You're not Ghydon!
Drysart has not given Gydyon posting access yet.
Thinking about your posts
(and billing you for it) since 2001
quote:
How.... Gydfather.... uughhhhhh:
Post thoughts, dammit! Forget about Lenny being me! He's exactly like me in high school, so it's just like I posted in 1990!
But you didnt, as there was no evercrest in 1990.
While EQ's content is lately all about high levels and the end game, if you look you can see some good changes for the casual player as well. Portals from the Plane of Knowledge, as well as said plane itself, make it easy for lower level characters to cross the world in just a matter of minutes (with a stop to pick up some bread and milk along the way). The Bazaar has made it possible for lower level characters to pick up some decent equipment (for their level) without spending endless hours hunting rare monsters for it. Soulbinders save you time that used to be spent begging for spellcaster assistance to perform what should have been a basic game function from the very begining.
EverQuest shows that they CAN make a game that's friendly to the casual player. Now, they just have to decide to actually do it.
Till someone does though, we're hosed for good casual games. [ 05-29-2003: Message edited by: Palador ChibiDragon ]
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quote:
Palador ChibiDragon had this to say about Knight Rider:
While EQ's content is lately all about high levels and the end game, if you look you can see some good changes for the casual player as well. Portals from the Plane of Knowledge, as well as said plane itself, make it easy for lower level characters to cross the world in just a matter of minutes (with a stop to pick up some bread and milk along the way). The Bazaar has made it possible for lower level characters to pick up some decent equipment (for their level) without spending endless hours hunting rare monsters for it. Soulbinders save you time that used to be spent begging for spellcaster assistance to perform what should have been a basic game function from the very begining.EverQuest shows that they CAN make a game that's friendly to the casual player. Now, they just have to decide to actually do it.
Till someone does though, we're hosed for good casual games.
Yes, but it still comes down to causal gamers having to watch their non-casual friends jump ahead on a treadmill. Is that really the only way to do things?
Perhaps the key is figuring out some of Lenny's tricks for levelling and the like.
Thinking about your posts
(and billing you for it) since 2001
quote:
The logic train ran off the tracks when Nwizzle Fo' Shizzle said:
I believe the way MMORPG makers think about expansions is, "Well, the game's been out for 10 months, that should have been plenty of time for everyone to get their level 50's, so let's release level 50 gameplay".
Exactly. But here's my point. There are hundreds of causal gamers to every one hardcore gamer. Why not pull them away from The Sims with something with some real appeal to it? There has to be money in it.
Thinking about your posts
(and billing you for it) since 2001
In one sense I agree with your case, because not many games do cater to the casual gamer, but I also disagree that the casual gamer is dead. Some games out there still do cater to the casual gamer, and can be enjoyed by both the casual and hardcore gamer.
quote:
Doomie had this to say about Duck Tales:
Some games out there still do cater to the casual gamer, and can be enjoyed by both the casual and hardcore gamer.
Other than Wolfenstein (which I concede in my article could be somewhat casual-friendly), please give me some online examples.
Thinking about your posts
(and billing you for it) since 2001
Of course, UO is dead, so that's no longer a suggestion.
It's my little thing to whine about. Let me do it, dammit!
quote:
Taeldian had this to say about John Romero:
Ultima Online.Of course, UO is dead, so that's no longer a suggestion.
It's my little thing to whine about. Let me do it, dammit!
Actually, I know nothing about UO. It came out when I did not know anything about the online world except omg kewl u can plya DoOm over the intarweb!
Thinking about your posts
(and billing you for it) since 2001
quote:
The logic train ran off the tracks when nem-x³ said:
I LOVE YOU GYDYON! HAVE MY BABIES!
Thank you for adding to the discourse. 
Thinking about your posts
(and billing you for it) since 2001
If you tailor a game to non-casual gamers, casual gamers can still play, and there's the added Vex Thal effect as a bonus - they dream that one day, they'll be there.
Option two is preferrable, so most (almost all) game developers go that way.
Thinking about your posts
(and billing you for it) since 2001
There are casual gamers who might make it to 50. But 50 now isn't important anymore. So, it'll be hard for him to find other casual gamers or a real group as most people who are 50 tend to blow through it. That's not really cool.
What I'm trying to say is that there is too much of a disparity between what the casual gamer can and can't really enjoy and what the powergamer can.
Especially in EQ's case, developers keep tailoring to the powergamers without really giving casual gamers a true nod.
And, yeah, there are more casual gamers than power gamers. You can game and have a life, you would know 
quote:
Gydfather's account was hax0red to write:
Post thoughts, dammit! Forget about Lenny being me! He's exactly like me in high school, so it's just like I posted in 1990!
I'm with you, dude.
I have very little time, though I enjoy online games. UO was fun for about a week, when the griefers took over. I quit EQ, not because I got bored with the game, but because it was overrun by do0dz. DAoC was worse. AO was still unplayably laggy when I got tired of it and left.
Hell, even single-player games are annoyingly geared toward fostering do0dn3$$. How do you come across loot in nearly every "roleplaying" game, these days? You smash stuff. A little old lady hires your party of knights in shining armor to rid her root cellar of giant rats--and the only way you can progress is if you smash everything in sight like a gang of pirates on a looting spree. Even Morrowind, arguably the best single-player RP opportunity in recent history, had some of the best equipment in the game sitting about to be stolen.
Oddly, the best online RP experience I've had has been in games like X-Wing vs. Tie Fighter, which combines a roleplay element with chances for cooperative as well as competitive play. Too bad it's been years since a good space sim was released. One has to go all the way back to Tie Fighter to get an immersive plot combined with sim-quality gameplay (as opposed to the more recent fad of arcade crap).
Uh, so yeah. I agree, and stuff.
--Satan, quoted by John Milton
quote:
Bloodsage had this to say about Captain Planet:
Oddly, the best online RP experience I've had has been in games like X-Wing vs. Tie Fighter, which combines a roleplay element with chances for cooperative as well as competitive play. Too bad it's been years since a good space sim was released. One has to go all the way back to Tie Fighter to get an immersive plot combined with sim-quality gameplay (as opposed to the more recent fad of arcade crap).
IMO Freespace and Freespace 2 as well as Aquanox (altough it wasn't really a space-sim it played a lot like one) were quite good both story- and gameplay-wise.
On the actual topic, well the problem is that any game beoyond a certain complexity allows one to become more and more skilled with time played, even if it does not have a level system. If you have 2 hours a day to play, and your friends play 6 they will get better at the game faster than you will, again leaving you behind, game makers can't really influence that.
Take chess for example, if your friends spend hours every day playing and researching games while you can't or don't want to devote that amount of time to the game, you'll run into serious trouble playing each other after a few months. Apply the same principle to sports, if your friends spend all day at the football court practicing you'll soon be hard pressed to keep up.
The best solution I see is to hook up with some of the many other people who don't devote their lives to the game and play with them, find a date or two a week where you can all play and go explore a dungeon together or do a quest for someone, even xp grinds once in a while can be fun instead of work if you're not under pressure to do it quickly.
Making a game that is complex yet does not give players who invest a lot of time into it and take it seriously an advantage is nearly impossible. [ 06-01-2003: Message edited by: Shazorx / Modrakien ]
Online games though? dunno.
quote:
There was much rejoicing when Gydfather said this:
Jens, there are millions more casual gamers than non-casual gamers, aren't there? Can't we make something that appeals to them too, or is the non-casual dollar that important?
I'm not a market expert or anything, but honestly, I'd say it is.
Powergamers are also the people that hype your game up because they have the time and the reason to do it - they're the powerful ones, so the more people that play it, the more recognition they get from people that go "whoa nice fungi d00d" if you know what I mean. They also think the game is lots of fun, or at least a good away to piss away time, not to mention that they're often into messageboards, IRC and the like and therefore have added online communication and a combination of those make them more likely to hype your game up.
Another point is that they're more attached to their characters and such because they're more advanced - I could ditch a 39 druid any time because fuck, I could level a new one up. It's not going to keep me in game. But turn the 39 druid into a 65 Elemental-geared rogue that I leveled myself and you have a whole new situation, because that's hundreds of days going to waste right there if I quit just like that. This makes powergamers play longer because they get to a "point of no return" that most casual gamers don't get to because the game means nothing to them.
As for Len, it's the dream that keeps you going in the treadmill - not the actual getting there. You can have a life, but that's not going to make the game developer any money.
As for Bloodsage, I don't think it's possible to make an idiot-free online game
[ 06-02-2003: Message edited by: Jens ]
Also, what Modrakien said - hit the nail right on the head.
quote:
Gydfather stopped beating up furries long enough to write:
Jens, there are millions more casual gamers than non-casual gamers, aren't there? Can't we make something that appeals to them too, or is the non-casual dollar that important?
This necessarily must be true on the whole but in a online game enviroment I'm not sure the differences in numbers are that big. At least not for the progressive type online games like EverQuest, SW:G etc. In a game like Wolfenstein where playing a lot won't reap benefits in the form of better equipment I suppose there will be a larger percentage of casual gamers for exactly that reason.
In the progressive type games I see 3 types of people generally. The power gamers, the wannabe power gamers (ie. people who play spend the same time as a casual player online, but suffer under the mistaken belief that they can still get to the elemental planes in EQ say) and the casual gamers. Of those groups I guess it's the middle one that feel the notions of this post the most. Really wanting to be up there with their hardcore friends but never really achieving it and getting more and more frustrated.
I have been playing EQ for more than 4 years now as a casual gamer although I do spend (at times) almost the same amount of time online as the power gamers. The key to being a happy casual gamer I think is to realise that this is what you are and set your goals accordingly. Don't attempt to keep up with the power gamers but find like-minded people online and make your plans with them instead.
quote:
Shazorx / Modrakien stumbled drunkenly to the keyboard and typed:
Making a game that is complex yet does not give players who invest a lot of time into it and take it seriously an advantage is nearly impossible.
Not to mention practically un-sellable, at least if this fact was revealed upon launch. To me it's quite obvious that most expansions must cater mainly to the power gamers because those are the people who will feel that they've hit a wall once they are in the current highest zone/level of a game. If there are no new challenges why keep playing? That being said I do think that the upcoming LDoN expansion to EQ does seem to have quite an appeal to the casual players. So it is at least possible to incorporate casual friendly elements into the progressive type online games - and maybe more solutions like this one will appear in time.
[ 09-07-2003: Message edited by: ToastedFritters ]
quote:
Jens, there are millions more casual gamers than non-casual gamers, aren't there? Can't we make something that appeals to them too, or is the non-casual dollar that important?
Non-casual gamers tend to be far more vocal in criticism / comments regarding games. If there are millions of "casual gamers" that are upset by the lack of games, then I'm apparently not looking in the right places, or they're just not interested in trying to convince developers to make a game "for them." Developers are concerned with pleasing their core audience (the hardcore gamers) rather than those that may or may not continue to play their game due to other constraints, which in the end means more money in their pockets.
I would assume at this point, finding a MMORPG that targets a "casual" audience would be impossible. The only ones I knew of were Underlight and Meridian59. After that, games make you work to experience content.
