quote:
Gikkwiny had this to say about Reading Rainbow:
And this... Well... What happens is that she blindsides people out of nowhere. They make a comment she disagrees with, and even though the board does not know whatever little treasure she does, she sees herself as the person who gets to tell it.
THIS IS NOT RIGHT. She is not one of the poeple in the relationship, weather is is Nae/Kanid/UBT (which.. I'm not even getting into that. DO NOT BRING UP THAT RELATIONSHIP.) Or Drys/Piper/Whomever. Seeing how Lyniar is Notthat whomever there, the RELATIONSHIP IS NONE OF HER FUCKING BUSINESS.Pulling out how soandso did suchandsuch when it's not common board knowlege is NOT HER RIGHT. Period.
That's always been my biggest beef with Lyinar. Some things just don't need to be dragged out and dragged around in the dirt and molled over and brought up over and over. It just ain't right.
quote:
And yes, the using personal names is a pet peeve - but some poeple get freaked out by being called by thier real name online. I know I would, unless it was by an EXTREMLY close friend - and a lot of people have issues- the board is ananymous. Pulling out names and waving them around is just rude.
It's only a pet peeve for me when you all call Pvednes 'Chris'. Because I'm Chris and it makes me go nucking futz.
quote:
Lady Delirium's fortune cookie read:
all i have to say here is that lyinar was the only one kind to me in my early days here (lets not remember those, please ._o)
i think in most situations, lyinar tries to find the good in the opposite side, making people view a situation differently. some people dont like this because they hate being proven wrong, theyre too stubborn to see things any other way, or they just dont like it for X reason. i think that like me in RL, she just likes to bring out the other sides of the story. I think though, even besides this, Lyinar has to be one of the kindest, prettiest, sweetest, people ive ever encountered, and to this day im still so glad two wonderful people such as deth and herself have found each other. i know this may be off topic, but i wanted to say it.
I concur, put into better words than I could use.
quote:
Lady Delirium thought this was the Ricky Martin Fan Club Forum and wrote:
all i have to say here is that lyinar was the only one kind to me in my early days here (lets not remember those, please ._o)
i think in most situations, lyinar tries to find the good in the opposite side, making people view a situation differently. some people dont like this because they hate being proven wrong, theyre too stubborn to see things any other way, or they just dont like it for X reason. i think that like me in RL, she just likes to bring out the other sides of the story. I think though, even besides this, Lyinar has to be one of the kindest, prettiest, sweetest, people ive ever encountered, and to this day im still so glad two wonderful people such as deth and herself have found each other. i know this may be off topic, but i wanted to say it.
Note however you specifically put up a disclaimer, NOT to bring your past and personal issues up again in your post.
Soon, I will be a Gang Image and my name will be spraypainted on walls.
Life is good.
Because I don't like her, and I'd like to see her leave for good. Plain and simple.
She's hurt and bothered people I like in the past, I don't like the way she approaches things, and I am holding a grudge against her for several flames she's dealt my way in the past.
Call me petty, childish, whatever. It's just the truth. I won't try to justify my dislike of her any more then I did in this post, because, quite frankly, I see no point to it.
Full sigpic image.
Liam - "Caitlin: You terrify me, but in a good way."
quote:
Gikkwiny stopped beating up furries long enough to write:
Alright.The issue with Lyinar had nothing whatsoever to do with RIG. I talked to her, at length, about Parcelan, and RPCrest. She agreed to lay off, if they did - and then BOOM - it's like I had never talked to her for three hours.
And this... Well... What happens is that she blindsides people out of nowhere. They make a comment she disagrees with, and even though the board does not know whatever little treasure she does, she sees herself as the person who gets to tell it.
THIS IS NOT RIGHT. She is not one of the poeple in the relationship, weather is is Nae/Kanid/UBT (which.. I'm not even getting into that. DO NOT BRING UP THAT RELATIONSHIP.) Or Drys/Piper/Whomever. Seeing how Lyniar is Notthat whomever there, the RELATIONSHIP IS NONE OF HER FUCKING BUSINESS.Pulling out how soandso did suchandsuch when it's not common board knowlege is NOT HER RIGHT. Period.
And yes, the using personal names is a pet peeve - but some poeple get freaked out by being called by thier real name online. I know I would, unless it was by an EXTREMLY close friend - and a lot of people have issues- the board is ananymous. Pulling out names and waving them around is just rude.
Okay...
1. I'm sorry for bringing up the RIG/Lyinar/Gikkwiny/Ja`Deth incident, Gikkwiny. I did send him a PM about it. Dunno if he got it because I never received word back.
2. You're proving my point about not bringing up personal stuff if you don't want to risk it being explored. I fail to see why one side can bring up a matter, expose it, and then when another side (any other side) approaches it, suddenly call it off limits.
I remember after the little incident in EQ with Nae and UBT where Lyinar thought Kanid was playing the EQ Kanid again that Geeorn thought he could take shots at Lyinar and myself. He thought he could be someone's seneschal, ride out and do battle in someone's name, defend the actions, but at the same time when *I* threatened to drag the matter completely out in the open and start a real war over it, people called for (and succeeded in getting) the thread to be locked.
And you're doing the same thing here. Don't bring up matters you cannot or will not be willing to defend. I play my personal life close to the chest. I've been online since the early days of AOL, and I'll tell you one thing...don't expose yourself. Don't do it. You want a personal board open to the public where everyone treats everyone like family? Fine. Family will burn one another with the facts they know about one another. Family members who don't get along with you can be one of the worst sorts of enemy you can have. Oh? You don't WANT just anyone in the public to have access to this information? Fine. Don't go spouting off in public about it. You can't have it both ways.
And again, I say that furthermore, if one side can violate that edict, demanding no one touch their private matters but they can attack someone else's private life, make wild suppositions, etc, then why is it any less fair if the opposing person or faction does the same? Why is it unfair for myself or Lyinar to bring up a nasty element of someone else's personal life if everyone does it to us? It's all or nothing. It's a line everyone can cross, or it's a line no one can cross.
And yet some people dance all over that line at a moment's notice. Worse, they don't do it as the support for an argument, they don't do it to make a point. They do it for a cheap laugh. None of you can be high and mighty about your personal business getting dragged through the mud when you yourselves have dragged other peoples' personal lives through the mud for a cheap laugh. Don't you dare wave your fingers at me and tell me that Lyinar has committed some cosmic wrong. Don't you dare condescend to me.
3. Petty? Pettiness has come up several times here. Lyinar never attacks someone solely for the purpose of riling them up. She doesn't bait people. She's a very very intelligent woman, but trickery with words is where I live. In the realm of underhandedness, Lyinar has (no offense dear) all the tact of a sledgehammer applied to a watermelon. She doesn't do it. I've seen her try; she's got the road map, the basic idea down, but she doesn't succeed at being underhanded.
That's the thing that gets me about when people say there's some great Lyinar conspiracy. I swear there have been some nights where what we say in #Talera seems to be broadcast on a satellite. EVERYONE finds out what was said in there, or in Private Communications here on the board.
Anyway, back on point. Petty? Define Petty for me. Is petty having asinine members of one group coming into our channel, spouting off two or three lines of shitty commentary, then leaving? Is petty having someone come in, spam the channel with gibberish, then going? Is Petty entering a thread where there's a serious discussion (or more likely) an argument going on and bringing up an ad hominem attack (or mocking the ad hominem rule, for that matter)?
Give me a break. Everyone can be petty. I know that you can't control the behavior of people who frequent a public channel. I can't control the behavior of people who come into #Talera, and Za, I know you can't control the behavior of people who did or do come into #RPCrest. But just as often as Azymyth, for instance, would tell people over there what was going on in #Talera (whether or not you were there to see it, Azy has already admitted he was doing it), he was also telling us in #Talera what was going on and being said in #RPCrest. And then he stopped telling us about #RPCrest, and we found out the hard way (namely by people getting uppity in PM's and msgs in IRC while we're trying to play in the D&D game I run) that he was still feeding information there. You may have had no control over the people involved in that sort of thing, but I get the distinct impression that for a long time there, no one was discouraging that. In #Talera, that was considered a major no-no. I said on several occasions that I'd just as soon not know what was going on in #RPCrest if it meant there wasn't someone going around behind our backs reporting our every action.
And you know what the BEST PART about that was? When it got brought up in one of the flame wars, WE were the ones who were getting teased, jeered, and mocked for wanting a bit of privacy! I could have cared less about what was going on in RPCrest, but people who wouldn't bother coming into our channel, getting to know us, talking to us, hanging out with us, were at the same time sneaking around behind our backs finding out what we were up to, usually when they were bored and had nothing better to do, I guess. Who knows. So don't talk to me about Petty. There's nothing that goes on in our public channel that we're ashamed of people seeing, but it's pretty, dare I say it, Petty and Underhanded to sneak around in the shadows, getting your satisfaction like some deranged scientists in a duck blind without coming in and saying what you want to say. It's pretty shitty that for all this talk of Petty, the people who got nasty about what they heard said in #Talera never once came into the channel to talk to us, to find out our stance. It's always sneaking around in the shadows, mocking us when we get irritated, and sending PM's.
And you know what? The people who sent PM's, the people who got nasty on the boards, the people who'd pester us when we were busy in IRC and who'd try to distract us while we're playing D&D are the exact...same...people who proudly displayed their little "member of RPCrest" comments in their sigs here on the boards.
Is it a conspiracy? No. Probably not. But when all of the people irritating the hell out of you fit one profile, unfortunately people who never did the harassing get dragged in. You can't control them, but the fact is that for a long time as far as we can tell no one even tried to say "Hey that shit ain't cool, yo." to them, like we did in #Talera.
So we started resorting to the same measures. People gather info on us? Fine. We gather info on other people. Which brings me to my next point.
4. Everything I know about anyone on the boards is stuff either A. they posted on the boards or B. Stuff they told me in confidence. I don't lord information over anyone's head. I know stuff about people who used to talk to me in private and who no longer do that I don't blow to the board populace at large. I don't threaten people with it. Neither does Lyinar. Get a grip. People spew information all the time on the boards. If we were sneaking around blackmailing people with embarrassing points, etc, I think you'd have seen someone mention it.
Blindside people with information, Gikkwiny? The Nae/UBT/Kanid incident in EQ started when Lyinar made a mistake about someone's identity. People got nasty, Lyinar got nasty, and the whole shebang went to hell. There was no blindsiding in that case.
Comments about Drys's breakups? That's a bit more touchy. In a breakup, no one handles things well. I like Drys. Despite all the negative things I may have said about the guy in the past, despite the fact I support someone who might say hurtful things about him at times, the guy is still very good to me personally. He lets me use his boards. He trusted me to be a moderator, and he didn't embarrass me publically like he could have when I screwed up one too many times. There are a lot of situations where he could have been a real shit to me personally, but he wasn't.
On the other hand, Drys doesn't walk on water. His touch doesn't magically cure disease, he can't raise people from the dead. And one of the places where Drys seems weakest (like most men) is in the realm of his relationships. Women he likes often get inordinate power. It's happened several times since I've been on the boards. If the woman is someone responsible, or someone who doesn't cater to the least common denominator type of humor, then the boards continue to spin along the safe side of the disaster curve. The "Piper Era" was one of those periods. When Drys RPed with Amethyst/Mystiana, things were excellent. On the OTHER hand, without naming names, if Drys is somehow involved with someone irresponsible, then the woman in question tends to, paradoxically, not only make things worse around here, but also get on other people who make things worse in some other way. I remember coming to the boards and there was rampant sexual innuendo everywhere...which is something of a ground state around here, but this was truly gratuitous sexual innuendo...you couldn't go into threads without finding some comment or another that was just irritatingly flirty. But man you say the word "Fuck" one too many times and all hell would break loose.
So the point, however painful, is legitimate. My ONLY apology for things that involve Drysart is that, even though I personally think he should have known better than some things, I know he's a human being and this most recent breakup seems to have hurt him the most. Tasteless, gratuitous things like the elves-humping-the-forums-icon come and go, and people either like it or don't like it, but things pass as they're wont to do.
But again, and I hate to keep comparing similar but not the same things over and over, why should courtesy be afforded if courtesy is not received? If you have a legitimate point to make, and the first reply out of someone's mouth is "ah so Lyinar sent you in" or "Why don't you get Deth to..." or "Dude, control your girlfriend" or "Man you are so whipped" or the like, why should you give a good god damn about anyone else?
In other words, people, don't mourn the loss of civility when you yourselves have been shoveling all politeness into the furnace feeding the flames for months. People start a flame war? They want to get petty? Fine. They don't get to say what is and is not appropriate flaming material.
That's something that some of the more well-known flamers have always understood. If it comes down to flaming, by god flame as hot as you can, as hard as you can, and inflict as much damage as possible. Don't idiotically think that you can make repeated snide little comments and then smack the other person on the back and go out for drinks later. Say what you want to say. Get it out in the open. Burn it clean and then get away. If tangling with someone is likely to leave you feeling more angry and hurt than you were feeling before and you don't think it's worth it, then don't start a fight.
Feeling exposed? Feeling like your soft underbelly is out there and someone might rip into it? We have better things to do than send Private Investigators to your house. In other words, don't drag your personal shit into the boards where everyone can see it. Don't whine because someone brings your personal business up as a support for their argument. How much do you people know about me, for instance? With the exception of two or three people around here, probably not much. And I don't go spreading my personal life around because I don't like feeling exposed. And yet I can maintain plenty of friendly, personable relationships with people on the boards. Go figure.
sigpic courtesy of This Guy, original modified by me
quote:
Ja'Deth Issar Ka'bael had this to say about Optimus Prime:
Okay...
The difference is, when someone brings up a quip about you, or one involving Lyinar. It's not someone injecting how or what your relationship has or hasn't evolved into.
Saying "Boy you're whipped" and stuff like that does not equate making assumptions of the actual relationship based on hersay, rumor, and personal bias and broadcasting them to make a point that doesn't exist. Hell I call Bajah, and Pesco whipped all the damn time. Period. No one dredges up personal opinions and spouts them as a defence or accusations on YOUR relationship, I have yet to see it happen. Of course I don't see all that much that goes on anymore, but I see enough. And when I can see Lyinar doing in continuosly, but not this proverbial "other side" that says something.
I haver personal experience with manipulation, its effects, or what can or cannot be read into something. Like it or not, and as much as you say she can't or isn't underhanded. It is purely and simply, not true. You'd find very few that agree with you there. No she's not the best at it, cause they are often easy to catch, but she does it all the same. She is also, like I said, too contradictory nearly every war she gets into for it to even be followed, and just acts to aggrivate people even further. The one statement thats right in there so far is the tact of a sledhammer statement, although not for what it was in reference to. And that IS well known, and admittedly so.
Also it really says something when the ONLY person and/or couples on EC that are the center of the most conflict, grudges, personal hatreds whatever you wanna call em is so very obvious. It is kind of hard to ignore, that there is something seriously wrong with the methods, practice, and tact used.
As for when was it good or bad, or whatever, and to bring up the 'unnamed' woman that you choose to avoid and label a bane. I have been here since the day these boards opened. Thats a well known fact, Jete, Geeorn, Jagged, and I were about the only ones really around besdides the cast. The woman in question that is so horribly painted as the worst era of EC history is so blatantly untrue it's not even funny. The days under HER were far better than they were at any other time, period, hands down. Just not for you, and you'll also find more people that disagree, than agree with you on that issue as well I am sure. The whole bad blood there, in my opinion and from whats been said and done, is flat out personal bias/dislike. Period. The boards were not hell hole slums back then, they were nicer than they are now, and were even more so than when Piper was the one overhead. So that is just the personal preference of a small fraction of people. In fact, people had more fun back then. In general. So that is just a pointless excuse to fall back on something, I'm sorry but it is. It is definitely not fair for Lyinar to take the stance than she can speak for everyone when she says otherwise, because most people tend to dislike that behaviour. Whether she takes that stance intentionally or not is not the point, it's just the fact that she does, and thats how she acts.
Personally I want the old Lyinar back, the old fun EC Lapwarmer, the girl who used to take pretty much all the sexual innuendos she could handle and dish some out herself like thier was no one better. Or in general the girl who didn't feel the need to be the proverbial 'voice of reason' all the time, and I MEAN all the time. It's just not going to happen anytime soon, and especially not with the reputation that has been built up this far, and just wont die because the bearer of the reputation just can't let sleeping dogs lie.
What other people did, I could not control. They saw her treat me like shit for my personal life, something that is none of her business, and something that I DID NOT bring to the board, and something that she will not hear my side of. She judges me based upon what she wants to know,not upon the truth. It all boils down to her being right and never changing.
Personally I am sick of the Nae vs Lyinar bullshit.
I am a happy person and her constant harpiness is a drag.
She attacked Lashanna on a personal level the other day in that thread about the EC banner being NSFW.
I like you Deth.. I think you are marvy... honestly. I think that Lyinar has some good qualities too. But I think for the most part, all she does is snipe at people and dig right for the place that hurts. When she is wrong, she won't admit it, or even try to hear you out.
1. I never said that the default state of the boards was, as you put it, "Hell Hole Slums". I think that on the whole the boards have always gotten better with every new iteration of people that join. I remember back when Delphi and Mightion and Pvednes and Parcelan and Frog/Snoota and Sage and all the personalities that make the board what it is today weren't here. I remember a time when OtakuPenguin wasn't as well defined. I remember when I first saw Suchii posting more often. All of those people, for better or worse, have contributed to the boards and it keeps evolving.
HOWEVER, you can also measure the speed at which it evolves. Back in the fledgling days when I first arrived (yes it was after you first arrived...do you want a cookie?), things were evolving pretty quick. Then you hit the Era of the Unnamed Chicky, and suddenly...man...if you weren't flirting and coming on to everything that moved, if you didn't worship at the feet of the Unnamed Chicky, then you were in deep doodoo. People who played along were rewarded, and people who didn't (and Lyinar and I weren't the only ones) were ostracized. People who DID play along got shafted (though I won't name names because he doesn't like the matter brought up), even if much later on they reconciled.
And then there was the Lie. And yeah it may have hurt Lyinar more than anyone else, but it certainly marked the worst day I think Lyinar ever had here at EC. Lyinar doesn't lie. She can't stand it if people lie to her and she doesn't do it to them. The Unnamed Chicky insinuated that Lyinar went into those forums and fucked things up. First off, I doubt Lyinar had that sort of power. Second of all, there would have been a record of who did what, but no evidence was ever provided that confirmed that Lyinar did anything over there. It was a Lie. When Lyinar got pissed off and started a fight over it, everyone sided with the Unnamed Chicky without any proof. They didn't need proof. They were the flirty in crowd with her, and no one cared about the truth. And the day that people chose popularity over the truth, the evolution of the boards became severely retarded (and by "retarded" I mean the dictionary definition...IE it was slowed down by a person or action).
What should Lyinar have done? Kowtow? Apologize for something she didn't do? Kiss ass? Give me a break.
When the Unnamed Chicky left, people continued to take shots at Lyinar. It was by then the "In" thing to do. This is your golden age, Fae? This was the best time the boards ever had? Really? It was the period where a lot of people who are now mainstays joined, and I can see where that's good, but please, tell me where ethically and morally it was the golden age. People were attacking one of the folks who'd been around for a good while over a Lie. A Lie that no one ever questioned. A Lie with no other proof than hearsay.
Bias? Hearsay? Keep in mind that the Unnamed Chicky, prior to the Lie, had offered both Lyinar and myself the opportunity to come check out her board and get involved. We had politely declined (in fact I shyed away from it). And it was after that, when we kinda hinted "Hey maybe the sexual stuff should stay in the other forums" and the whole split over Porncrest/Evercrest (yes, remember that before Kenn did a comic by that name, there was a split between people in the chat channel; some were tired of going in there and having the roleplay and out of character good humor that had been the mainstay replaced by the rampant sexual innuendo, perversions, and virtual out and out sex play going on in there) that things started getting hostile.
And it wasn't long after THAT that the Lie showed up. Things were already somewhat hostile. The channel changed to Drys's server and that was another point of contention. But I really think things would have reconciled and not gotten to the point of having to edit words on the boards (the T E H word was a joke, and not being able to use the word S O R C E R Y is pretty irritating if someone wants to discuss magic in or out of character), and such if things hadn't been blown open by this alleged invasion and disruption by one rogue moderator/admin/magic banana farmer that supposedly happened.
Some golden age.
2. Get your facts straight, Fae. You make it out that Lyinar was just as much a slut as some of the women involved in the Unnamed Chicky's time were. She sat on laps. She flirted, but there wasn't any cybering in the background. It was the difference between using a feather and using a chicken. Even when I first started showing up (which, I might remind you, was under a different nick than "Ja`Deth", and is a nickname that unless *I* reveal, probably won't ever come up again) prior to Lyinar and my reconciliation, I never once saw her going to the extremes that some later people did. Don't delude yourself into thinking otherwise. And please don't insinuate that she was some sort of multiple-partner sex fiend with comments like she would "take all sexual" whatevers, bub.
As for her current reputation, like I said, it was born out of an era. Flirting is fine. No one minds flirting. I don't mind flirting. But there is a line between flirting and lewdness. When Mort's sister first started posting here as ZigZag, remember she crossed the line quite often; but once she learned the preferred pace here she toned down the unfavorable behavior.
Other people learned to tone things down over time. Evercrest came back from the edge of being a cheap Cinemax-style softcore porn community. So whether you like to admit it or not, getting upset about it way back when was the right thing to do. I'm not saying Lyinar was psychic or could predict the best road to go down, but in this thread alone how many trends have I pointed out that she got upset about, and EVENTUALLY things went that way? Four? Five? How many more times do I have to point the things out?
I'd LOVE to hear what your explanation of those trends are. To me it says that deep down people know what's right and what's wrong, and while it may be fun to dance in the "wrong" area for a while now and then, deep down everyone wants a "right" to come back to, and if you go too far into the "wrong" people realize there's no "right" to come back to.
Likewise, Faelynn, if you want to discuss this matter further, by all means PM me, find me in IRC, or email me. My door is always open. We can discuss further our differing memories of the past. I find it very interesting that no-one but Tegadil has sent any PM's to me. Is it because it's easier to mob someone on a point? or is it because of something else? I don't care either way. It just occurs to me that I'm going to be saying the same things over and over again if I keep talking to a mob that can stir itself up. Oh well. I can repeat myself.
Now to respond to Illanae:
1. As I recall, there was a bit of playful mocking of Lyinar before anyone clarified that the Kanid in EQ at that time was in fact UBT. So let's face it; people were winding Lyinar up before things blew and got messy. You can't mess with someone and expect them to just laugh it off. Then there was the crack "Do you want his phone number" that was made, along with the "If you want to see him so bad, go to the GU boards" before Lyinar blew her stack about using someone else's character. You own the account, but as far as Lyinar always knew, the character, the intellectual property was Kanid's. No one was begrudging you the opportunity to play a game with your husband.
By the way, the repeated "Bitch" and "Cunt" comments? Very mature way of handling a situation created not by Lyinar, but by other people.
2. I mentioned that event only to reference Geeorn's behavior in regards to Gikkwiny making the comment about bringing up stuff that isn't peoples' business. Either all sides, as I said, can use the same references, or no side can. One side can't use it and at the same time hold it sacrosanct, like Geeorn and the gang tried to do in that thread (a thread started by Synjari, as I recall, though I may be wrong).
3. Friends are a wonderful thing. I don't begrudge anyone having them, or their friends coming to their defense. Your friends came to your defense. Lyinar saw something involving one of her friends that didn't seem quite kosher, and questioned it and yes got hostile after it, but only got hostile after your friends got nasty. Friends are a great thing. It's sad when they go to war for stupid reasons, especially when if people had remained civil and not immediately said "Aha Lyinar crusade!" in their own minds, it probably could've been resolved much more amicably.
As for Lyinar not hearing your side of your personal life, I seem to recall Lyinar saying as it happened and even afterwards several times that if someone wanted to clue her in, that she'd love to hear the truth from all sides. People told her to shut up and mind her own business. It can't be both ways...either the door's open to talk about it, or it's shut. You can't slam it in someone's face and then say "well it's a shame she won't hear my side of things"
As for the Lashanna thing the other day...banner NSFW...which banner are we talking about? The animated one with the elf chicks on it? Someone give me the reference. Or a link to it. Or something.
As for Lyinar being wrong about stuff, other people don't admit it when they're wrong unless they're badgered into it, have no other option, or they're trying to get attention. Someone doing what Parce did and flat out saying to the board, in all honesty, that he was wrong? Very rare. Plus there's the fact that everyone still says she was wrong about all those past trends, but from where I'm standing looking back, she was right; just not right when it was popular to be wrong.
I don't ever have a problem with compromising with her. Whether that's because I'm special or not I can't say. She seems perfectly able to reach peaceable accords with other people in our channel. She can compromise. She can forgive. Hell we're dealing with someone now who there's some negative vibes about. I'm pissed off and feeling like I got a red hot vest on under my skin about it, but she wants to do things more peacefully.
I think looking for someone to take the fall is a baaaaad idea. No one is ever 100% guilty. Looking someone to pin a crime on, whether a crime was committed or not, is a bad idea. Compromise is the key...However, so long as one side wants to attack, attack, attack and take shots and play the blame game, you won't ever see compromise. Oh well.
sigpic courtesy of This Guy, original modified by me
quote:
Frog thought this was the Ricky Martin Fan Club Forum and wrote:
I actually read all that.
What do you give it out of 10?
quote:
Check out the big brain on Iron Parcelan!
What do you give it out of 10?
Yeah, give us a summary. Maybe you could write a book review for us.
sigpic courtesy of This Guy, original modified by me
quote:
Suddar had this to say about John Romero:
Yeah, give us a summary.
Lyinar good. Unnamed Chicky bad. Kanid thing misunderstanding. People in EC perverts. Better before Snoota was here.
quote:
Suddar had this to say about John Romero:
Yeah, give us a summary. Maybe you could write a book review for us.
Thanks for proving one of my earlier points, Suds. Now go away.
sigpic courtesy of This Guy, original modified by me
Note: I read neither of them.
i think those essays, broke something in my head.
quote:
There was much rejoicing when Frog said this:
I actually read all that.
so did i. ^_^
quote:
Ja'Deth Issar Ka'bael had this to say about dark elf butts:
1. As I recall, there was a bit of playful mocking of Lyinar before anyone clarified that the Kanid in EQ at that time was in fact UBT.
I was online when the Kanid account suddenly appeared on the EC chat channel in EQ. (I don't remember which of my many alts I was, so don't be suprised if you can't remember Palador or Zaile being in that channel at the time.) It didn't take long for it to become clear that the person playing the character of Kanid was, in fact, not Kanid. (Naturally, if there were any direct tells, I don't know of them.)
As I recall, it was in part my questions on the chat channel that lead to everyone realizing just who was playing that account, and how. (I was happy to hear from Kanid, as I had liked his usual-type postings and LOVED his sigpic.) I was kinda bummed to find out that it wasn't him after all (nothing against UBT, naturally), and more than a little disturbed to find out that person B was playing person A's character. I don't like people messing with my stuff, and it makes me unconfortable to see it done to other people.
I actually typed a big, long reply to that effect and was about to send it over the chat channel, when I deleted it instead. I realized that it really wasn't my business, and that a character in an 'abandoned' EQ account wasn't worth stirring up bad feelings for.
There may be a lesson to learn here. Or, there may not. But this is one of the reasons I voted a 3.
Stuff like this is also a reason why people on this board don't know my real name, and why I have never bothered to track down the other ECers that actually live in the same town as me. There are things I can say, and thoughts I can express, that I never would post here if there was a chance that people would trace them back to the "real" me.
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Ja'Deth Issar Ka'bael painfully thought these words up:
I fail to see why one side can bring up a matter, expose it, and then when another side (any other side) approaches it, suddenly call it off limits.
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Ja'Deth Issar Ka'bael painfully thought these words up:
And you know what the BEST PART about that was? When it got brought up in one of the flame wars, WE were the ones who were getting teased, jeered, and mocked for wanting a bit of privacy!
Anyhow,
If you want to know, the biggest problem I have with Lyinar and the main reason I usually don't see eye-to-eye with her is a lack of internal consistency in the issues she often takes a stand for; and these two quotes illustrate the type of thing I'm talking about.... on one hand it's "if you don't want it publically known, hold your cards close to your chest and don't tell anyone, because it's your own damn fault if someone starts repeating it"; and on the other hand, it's "whatever we say in our IRC channel must stay in our IRC channel... it's not fair to go repeating it elsewhere when we don't want you to".
This has been a recurring problem it seems almost every time something comes up. Lyinar wanted Mortious protected from prosecution because his rude comments were in IRC, not on the forums, so they shouldn't count (which was a contributing factor in my abandonment of the stupid.net IRC channel -- her attempted power-play in trying to get me banned from the channel for this incident by Kennatsu who had at some point graduated from simply holding the channel registration for me so no one else could get it into being the final authority on all matters involving it also factored in); yet only a few months later, she came to me about how some of the #RPCrest people should face penalties on the board for harassing #Talera (which led to my short-lived Drybot being placed in just about every IRC channel under the sun).
Feel free to hit me up sometime to rant about IRCpolitik, that could fill a whole thread by itself.
The most recent hoopla about moderators is another fine example. Anyone that's been here for a while knows that pretty much every rule put in place has been reactionary -- a solution to a problem. I don't like making rules for the sake of making rules. The entire reason moderators are anonymous and mods are held to strict guidelines to only enforce the rules as written because of very public Lyinar rants about how admins were showing favoritism.
The end result: moderators completely devoid of personality. Problem solved. Which is why I'm rather surprised Lyinar's lobbying for moderators to take a more subjective role in controlling content. Lyinar blew a gasket when Peachis accidentally editted someone's post instead of replying to it and how it was unfair that a mod is able to change someone's words, and so I instituted a policy of post editing being verboten except in extreme circumstances; and today she's asking for that to come back -- edit posts, don't lock threads.
I'll only briefly mention her fair-weathered respect for the forum rules --- I can't count the number of times she'd asked for someone to be reprimanded or banned for varying degrees of rule violations, yet point blank told me she didn't respect the private resolution rules when it came to issues she disagreed with my private decision about.
I try my damndest to avoid favoritism in anything I do here. Even people who have "had my ear" at one point or another (namely, Peachis and Piper), didn't always get what they wanted when it came to forum matters (both of whom I spent many a day under the silent treatment due to a disagreement with some forum issue). I tread the fine line of trying to keep the forums as a place I like to visit, yet at the same time trying to do it with as little use of moderation as possible. Peachis liked flirtation and steered the forums in that direction as much as I let her; and Piper was a conserative that would make Azizza proud (well, when it suited her, at least; hypocracy is her middle name as it came to be discovered) and steered the forums in that direction as much as I let her.
There was a point when Lyinar probably wouldn't have cared as much about the porncrestization of the boards -- hell, I crawled behind furniture with her a few times -- but she changed when she got serious with Deth, and that's fine, but I got the impression she made it a point to make sure everyone else changed as well.
I don't remember exactly what incident led to me stripping Lyinar of her admin powers -- but I do remember it was because I felt that she was acting above the rules herself; a "do as I say, not as I do" sort of situation.
I'm not sure if I'm going for any further points anymore, so I'll stop ranting. It's late anyhow and I need to get to sleep.
Wow, I'm SO glad I don't hang out in IRC. You have no idea how eerily familiar all of this sounds to me...same activities, new faces.
Under capitalism, man exploits man. Under communism, it's just the opposite. - John Kenneth Galbraith
I agree with Gikk and yes I probably started that thread and was greatly angered.. but you see.. its for far more than just the Kanid account thing. Too many times have people been accused for being something other than what they are. In order for Lyinar to rid herself of the dislike that many share for her.. she should either take a breather from the boards.. or greatly force herself to change the way she handles herself in many of the posting situations that can lead to a flame war and therefore adding fuel to the fire that people wish to set at her feet.
I do want to point out one thing.. one instance where Lyinar had no reason to drag Nae's personal life into a post. It sticks in memory because I couldnt believe that someone could so callously do that to another person.. involve them in something that they themselves did not get involved in. I believe the post was about Redmage and his call for pity when his girlfriend broke up with him and his later admittance that he had cheated on her. Many people were angered by the lie and Lyinar came to his defense.. I recall it all too clearly that she set up Nae's personal life between her/Kanid/UBT as a parallel example of the board being 'forgiving' towards cheating. (in all honesty I believe the board was mostly angered that he was playing the woe is me act and then admitted the why about it)
You need to remember that Nae's only post about her and Kanid's relationship was an announcement to board friends that they were to be divorced. She didnt say why.. she didnt say anything further.. just a courtesy post to friends of the couple that there were unresolvable problems within their relationship that was leading to this divorce. She wrote it not in a gloating way but moreso in a 'fyi' for friends as there were many on the boards whom they considered as their friend.
Bear in mind that the one who one-sidedly posted the how and the why of the breakup was Kanid.. not Nae.. Nae wanted to keep private things private. No one needed to know the why of it. In fact she probably wouldnt have told KaL and myself any of her side of it (again due to her want of privacy of her personal relationships with people) save for the fact that we witnessed a very bad arguement between her and him while she was visiting us in Vegas (when we went out there the first time to visit with our southwestern friends).. an arguement that was a continuation of a snowball effect.
Yes Nae said it was none of anyone's business and she wished not to discuss it.. however there were many snide jabs from Lyinar afterwards.. to the point where Nae eventually felt a need to tell her side of it to Lyinar but by that point, I dont think Lyinar wanted to change her mind about her opinions. That is fine.. you may think what you want about anyone.. however you really need to focus on the fact that no matter what happened between two people in their relationship.. constantly pouring salt on open wounds in a public forum is generally a bad idea.. and very bad form. I lost respect for Lyinar after she posted Nae's relationships in comparison with Redmage's.. simply because she had no right to.. Nae didnt even post in that thread until way after she saw Lyinar's post involving Nae's name..
Why do I post that instance.. because it was one of the biggest and it resulted in a loss of faith in how Lyinar responds within posts. My respect began to go up a bit but then I continued seeing this war of words between her and others..
I honestly think that many have the right idea here in their posts.. Lyinar needs to step back and really think about what she is gonna post before she posts it.. take things with a grain of salt.. and show people that she isnt as mean as she comes across. Instead of getting in heated debates or taking jabs at people.. try and speak with a bit more tact.. and realize that just as she has feelings.. so do others.. and things sting just as deeply..
I am not saying that Nae has always been innocent nor do I think Nae feels that she is always a victim.. she knows that she is human just as we all are.. but we need to all give one another a show of respect for our personal feelings and lives.
One other point before I leave, Deth.. this is for you so that you can kinna calm yourself down a bit on one point that Fae made..
Never would Fae insinuate that Lyinar was some loose hussy or whore.. I think he just means that he misses the days when Lyinar was more carefree and flirtatious.. because people were more at ease within that time. I wish I could have known you all back then.. Im sure my vision of EC would be very different and my opinions may be changed somewhat.. but I came in right as Drys moved to Califas so Im a bit of a latecomer. 
I just want you to know that Fae isnt the type of guy that would point fingers at Lyinar and say that she was cybering with everyone.. he just misses the fun person that she used to be. Thats all. =)
To Lyinar:
I dont want you thinking that I hate you.. I really dont.. there are very few people who such a strong would could or would be reserved for.. people who have hurt me deep to my core in a very emotional or physical way.. and even then I am not sure that hate could be a word used for them.. moreso pity that they feel they must act that way in order to justify the value of their lives.
For you.. I would say that you are indeed a good person.. you just need to think before you type.. as do we all. A rule of thumb that we use on my guild's board that many try as hard as possible to follow (Cut and pasted):
4. “Read with best intentions.” Always read /guildsay and guild board messages with the idea that the writer had the best intentions at heart. If you read something that sounds like a slam/attack against you or another person, try and read it out loud. See if you can say it in a way that makes it not an attack or that makes it humorous. Try and remember that 80% of communication is non-verbal, and text message can easily be misunderstood.
On the other hand, whenever you write a message in /guildsay or on the guild message board always go back and re-read it before you submit it. Make sure that you are not writing something that could be taken the wrong way.
To Illanae:
If I said anything here that went against your feelings or wishes.. I deeply apologize. I dont mean to speak out on behalf of anyone.. but I think that the you/lyinar thing is one of the biggest rifts within the board that has caused people to dislike Lyinar or her actions. I wanted to point out a few things that others may have forgotten.
Final comments.. I agree with much of what Gikk, Fae and Drysart have written as I think much of it lies at the heart of the problem as to why a majority may have a dislike for Lyinar. Perhaps this will, in turn.. help Lyinar create a different approach in her posting habits and I hope that things can get resolved. Life is too short to hold grudges. =)
*hugs to all, smooches for Naechica and licks for Trent and Gen.. and all my love for KaLourin *
- Synjari aka the long-winded one
btw, I voted a 4 if you hadnt noticed.
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The logic train ran off the tracks when Ja'Deth Issar Ka'bael said:
SNIP
Too long, and gonna be hard to respond to, too hard to read.
First of all, I never called Lyinar a slut or any of that other stuff. I never thought of her that way, but she was by far (Outside of probably the PM cybering issues) just as involved, flirty, and innuendo obssessed as the next person. The whole place was like that, and guess what. It was like that way before the two of you got here.
ALso, Peachis was in power well before Lyinar was, if only in part because she had her own forum. She was before your time. The era, and time I spoke of was before Lyinar even came to power, and Lyinar came to power as a favor to Tim when he was going to be away if I recall correctly. Peachis, Mystania, and the rest of the crew were already here at that point, she just had her own area to take care of. Sorry, that period is time was better, and it is usually that "Golden Age" everyone who has been here for any length of time speaks of. Eh, my statement about being here early came across wrong, it wasn't a matter of a lording over you issue, it was more a "I have been here and seen what you have not." Including a time when you and Lyinar were not involved, and yes things were a lot different then.
Also, the dissention between the rooms had nothing to do with Porncrest or any of that crap. It was supposed to be a temp room holding the name If I remmeber correctly. (NOt sure about that, but I always remember Drys was SUPPOSED to take it over at some point) and that never happened. Why the dissention, because people didn't like a lot of the crap that was tolerated, and or allowed in there after a while. So thats a bunch of crap there. In fact, since you brought up ZigZag, thats a perfect example of WHY it had nothing to do with Pcrest. She was by far the worst, and she was tolerated and allowed to great extents to do what she wished, it offended a lot of people. Including those of us who were so horrible because we were a bit more flirty that the reformed crowd. Yet she was given more chances and allowed to cause more crap in the sorc room than she was in the evercrest room. Another good example was Paul554. People just quit going to the sorc room because too much crap went on and was tolerated that the majority didn't agree with, and Kennatsu had a tendancy to flip flop a lot of times on occasion when it caused a lot of issues. I was one of the original moderators of that room, and aside from Kenn, at the time, I had the most power in that room, but it was gimped because Kenn hard time, sometimes as hard as I do, of being the badguy, and I was not allowed to execute any authority. In fact when I did get to the point of coming in and just overriding Kenn, and 'laying the smack down' so to speak, Lyinar was one of the first to cause a stink and came out and flat out called everyone a flaming asshole for even agreeing with what I had proposed to do, which wasn't that drastic, and way overdo. Also mind you everyone there save her agreed with it. After having that thrown back in my face, I quit going to that room all together because it was, to be honest, a room full of crap and not worth my time. The main room was more socialable, a lot nicer, and lacked any of the issues the sorc room suffered from. I requested my powers stripped, and I left. I have refused to be a mod anywhere, period. Somehow, for some reason I was oped in with powers in RPCrest. I immediate had D, deop me. Because I remember all the crap that went on in the sorc room. Sorry, as far as that room going under. It had little to nothing to do with any supposed porncrest or whatever you like to think there. It just eventually annoyed the shit out of people, and Lyinar had a tendancy to lord over the people in that room. They didn't like it. Not to mention stupid.net servers suck, and they always have. I run my games on the main EC server for that very reason. Stability sucks. There are a multitude of reasons the servers split, none of which having to do with the supposed 'porncrest'. Again, on that, before you got here, and before you guys were 'the' couple. Like it or not, she was for more than just flirty. Fae was flirty, Lyinar could make me look angelic on occasion. She had the same stipulations I had however, things only went so far, but saying otherwise just doesn't make sense. There are still people here who remember her behaviour from back then. This is not a bad thing, and Drys already touched on the subject before I started writing this, that hey. You two are great together, it's all good and wonderful, but that doesn't change the fact. It wasn't as so innocent flirty as you would like to think it was, by innocent I mean more than just sitting on laps tye flirty stuff, not that it was innocent fun. And no, I am not in anyway implying that she cybered, or had multiple IC sex romps with anyone, but as far as public display, she could make ME look bad, and I was FAR from being innocent in my comments. I just had my limits, ie: Fae was a character and stayed as such, and I never did any of the private room whatever crap. I was a a guy, there was no way you were gonna get me to play any of that stuff out any more indepth than I already had, or in private.
As far as Peachis being the unnamed chicky and whatever passed between them, again it supports the fact that Lyinar carried a grudge period. By the time Peachis left these boards, they were already well into decent, and Lyinar had already earned her rep by then for way too many different reasons. None, or at the very most, a small unimportant fraction of which having to do with issues involving Peachis. She was generally disliked for a miraid of reasons by then. It also had nothing to do with the 'era' I was talking about or describing.
As for Evercrest coming back from the edge of being a softcore porn or whatever you call it. It was never at the edge, and it sure as hell never came back from anywhere. It didn't get any worse than it had ever been before. The boards were ALWAYS perverted like that, in fact sometimes they were even worse. Peachis had nothing to do with that pehenomenon. Hell even before she really had much time under her belt, in posting anyway, Geeorn was talking about spooging in sinks, and there was rampant couples hopping going on. Thats just a bunch of crap that EC somehow, went down the gutter mysterious only after you arrived, and has in anyway come back from it at that. Hell we have NSFW tags now, and only recently has the boards been seen with actuall NUDE pictures, aside from the occasional jokes. As far as how many she has gotten upset about that eventually got better? As I said.. In all reality. Not many at all, all she has done is ruined her rep, and become the vision of personal dislike to many.
As for the "Why not PM, and put it all here" thing. She requested the thread, she wanted it public, I am responding to it in public, and countering most of the points. I am also not trying to pin some crime on her, or anything like that. In fact she is far from the only guilty party in the matter, and a lot of people have contributed. But I do see her as the worst of which, but I'd vote for and or request for most of the people I see in the wrong that I would for her. I don't play the favorites game, even for friends, and in actuallity I am more likely to come down harder on my friends than I do on my enemies. YOu can ask Arttemis about that one. I have torn into him a time or to, I have come down on Drys before, I have come down on Lyinar before in the past. Friend or not, I'm still going to say what I personally feel is the best solution in my opinion towards her. Her being my friend has nothing to do with it. I can personally hate my friends actions and conduct, but have them still be a friend.
Now I'm not sure I addressed everything I wanted to, or saw.. But that post was too long, and I'd have to keep re-reading it to catch every point.
However, in respect to keeping my mouth shut from here on in, and because I'm tired of talking about it. Right or wrong.
I will just simply say, Lyinar is a friend, I still respect her, but I wish to see her banned at least for a little while to take a break. And thats pretty much the last thing I'll say.
In all honesty, I doubt the results from a poll on myself much like this one would come out much better. I have just as many enemies, in different ways. So this isn't something I see as personal. Everyone will have thier own views on the issues, thier own opinions and feelings, so to be truthfull it is all pointless, and should have just been left to a vote.
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How.... Ja'Deth Issar Ka'bael.... uughhhhhh:
Okay...
I'm going to bring up something past here, since you obviously felt the need to bring #RPcrest into this grief, and apparently thinks you're been greatly wronged in a one-side war.
Lyinar trying to get Kinanik to ban everyone in #RPcrest because she agreed with a banning decision in OUR channel.
Ring a bell?
Sorry, Deth, but you're not the innocent angel here, if anything the other way around. I admit people in RPcrest have their own share of faults, but the spying was never a publically requested or sanctioned thing, or even a daily report or anything, just occasional "jewels" C&Ped, I just didn't really give a damn if people wanted to CnP shit from Talera, as I assumed they were doing the same over there, and it didn't really bother me.
I'm sorry, but whatever you think we have done against you, it does pale in the comparision of the underhanded ways that Lyinar has felt the need to stab away.
Here's the story, in it's full glory, since apparently we can't let the past be buried. Leaving all names but the three most vital out.
A good while back, when Kinanik still owned #RPcrest, we banned a person in the channel. I don't quite remember why - I *think* it was one unwanted sexual advance/action too much, or something like that.
Anyways, two days later Kinanik popped into the channel and sent me a tell, asking my reasoning for banning this person and hinting that I was abusing my ops. We talked calmly for a bit, I explained my reasons and stated pretty simply that we were there every day, he was almost never there, if he wants to prevent us from banning people fine, we'd just move to #rp_crest, because we needed control over our own RP enviroment.
So, after this talk, Kinanik rather unexpectedly handed the channel over to me - never thought he would, I assume this was just a personal choice based on whatever reasons.
Now... I thought everything was fine and dandy, but then some of this "spying" Deth is adamantly against took place. A person hanging in both #RPcrest and #Talera at the time opened a PM, with some quotes of Lyinar spewing gall over Kinanik, saying, I quote, "I am dissapointed with you, Kinanik, you let Za bully you." - from these comments, it became clear that it was Lyinar's doing that Kinanik came in there at all, that she was pissed because we banned her friend, and that her goal had been to get us all banned from #RPcrest to state a petty point.
I do have to wonder, how well does that sit with being open, honest and leaving private channel matters private, Lyinar, Deth?
Not to mention that some time later, in the middle of another mini-war, I brought it up as a point in a PM when a pretty much identical discussion about leaving the other channel alone was taking place, and she adamantly denied it had ever happened - *until* I showed her logs. Then as I remember it, but not sure here, she got pissed over the fact that we had spied on her private channel business...
If you don't want to bury the past, don't bury the past, but be ready to see how Lyinar can actually act, *even* if she is your girlfriend and you love her, and thus see her good sides over the bad ones. It's easy to be biased, and I'd be just as biased if Addy got into a fight, until heavily proven otherwise - but that's the difference... it's been proven again and again and again and again that Lyinar simply does not care -at all- of how many bodies she has to step over, or wheter they're innocent or not, as long as she gets to nurture and feed her slights. [ 04-02-2003: Message edited by: Zaza ]
Nae or UBT have never spoken publicly about the matter. Kanid decided to post stuff that obviously was going to show himself in the best possible light. Better if he had taken the high road, but hey, he's a big boy and can make his own choices. Me? I knew more and was more involved than 99.99% of the rest of EC combined. Guess what? I'm not talking about it either. Why? Not my life, none of my buisness. It'd be nice if the rest of EC followed along with me on this one. [ 04-02-2003: Message edited by: Callalron ]
Uhm... I like swords.
She's too reckless. She charges like a bull into threads and stirs things up. She also doesn't really think things from what I believe.
She has good intentions. I quite often find myself agreeing for what she stands for, but often for not what she says.
She contributes quite a bit, but she also detracts from the board too much to really warrant a continued prescence here.
this post is so ignored, because it is not 3000 pages long [ 04-02-2003: Message edited by: Lenlalron Flameblaster ]
Todays ingidient is ... Lyinar!! This should get intresting folks, lets see what they come up with.
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Ja'Deth Issar Ka'bael had this to say about Cuba:
Thanks for proving one of my earlier points, Suds. Now go away.
What the hell are you trying to imply with this?
I wasn't getting involved in anything. I wanted a summary because I was too tired to read it myself. Maybe Snoota's not the best person to ask, but hey, he read it.
And p.s. I wasn't trying to be snide or crude or whatever the hell. I was tired. And to be honest, yeah, I think everybody's making too big a deal out of it. I voted 4. That's all. Some people voted 5, some people voted 2 and 3, and a few people voted 1. You know, whatever. Who the fuck cares? Apparently Lyinar doesn't, and that's fine. So do we really need the long-winded posts? What's everybody trying to prove anyway? [ 04-02-2003: Message edited by: Suddar ]
Lyinar Ka`Bael, Piney Fresh Druidess - Luclin
