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Author
Topic: Checks and balances? What are those?
Karnaj
Road Warrior Queef
posted 05-03-2004 12:34:17 PM
All hail Emperor Bush! Or else he'll declare you an enemy combatant and lock you up for as long as he likes.

Man, I sure hope the Supreme Court dismisses their argument.

That's the American Dream: to make your life into something you can sell. - Chuck Palahniuk, Haunted

Under capitalism, man exploits man. Under communism, it's just the opposite. - John Kenneth Galbraith



Beer.

Katrinity
Cookie Goddess!
posted 05-03-2004 12:37:00 PM
That's a very scary thought that our government (the one who is supposed to uphold the Liberties of the People) would even be trying or thinking this...
Cookie Goddess Supreme
Furry Kitsune of Power!
Pouncer of the 12th degree!
"Cxularath ftombn gonoragh pv'iornw hqxoxon targh!"
Translated: "Sell your soul for a cookie?"
Blindy.
Suicide (Also: Gay.)
posted 05-03-2004 01:01:44 PM
It doesn't effect white christan people so why should we care?!?! VOTE REPUBLICAN! THANK JESUS!
Reynar
Oldest Member
Best Lap
posted 05-03-2004 01:02:21 PM
I'm not surprised. His administration has had the "it's my way or the highway" attitude since he got elected into office.

Bush has proven several times over that civil liberties mean nothing to him.

"Give me control of a nation's money, and I care not who makes its laws."
-Mayer Rothschild
Azizza
VANDERSHANKED
posted 05-03-2004 01:04:42 PM
How about linking to something a little less Bias than Salon.com, meaning pretty much anything.
"Pacifism is a privilege of the protected"
Gunslinger Moogle
No longer a gimmick
posted 05-03-2004 01:15:00 PM
quote:
ACES! Another post by Azizza:
How about linking to something a little less Bias than Salon.com, meaning pretty much anything.

Does this float your boat?

You can't really dismiss this as bias...it's some pretty creepy crap any way you slice it.

Gunslinger Moogle fucked around with this message on 05-03-2004 at 01:16 PM.




moogle is the 3241727861th binary digit of pi

Disclaimer: I'm just kidding, I love all living things.
The fastest draw in the Crest.
"The Internet is MY critical thinking course." -Maradon
"Gambling for the husband, an abortion for the wife and fireworks for the kids they chose to keep? Fuck you, Disneyland. The Pine Ridge Indian Reservation is the happiest place on Earth." -JooJooFlop

Blindy.
Suicide (Also: Gay.)
posted 05-03-2004 01:20:13 PM
quote:
Did someone say Azizza:
How about linking to something a little less Bias than Salon.com, meaning pretty much anything.

Fox news was too busy discussing how Kerry is a gutless bastard because he was wounded three times in the war and excersized his option to get transfered out of the combat zone, and couldn't possibly be compared to Bush's spotless service record of heroically sitting in a training cockpit in texas when he wasn't being flown to washington to go on dates with Nixon's daughter or not showing up for a year... so they couldn't cover the story.

Blindy. fucked around with this message on 05-03-2004 at 01:20 PM.

Skaw
posted 05-03-2004 01:25:53 PM
So much for the already meaningless "Innocent until proven guilty" stance our country is supposed to hold.
Zair
The Imp
posted 05-03-2004 01:31:46 PM
This is why I am honestly concerned about another 4 years of Bush. Hell, in the second four years he doesn't even have to worry about public opinion.

The fact that there are many Americans ok with this policy of unlimited detaining is even more disturbing.

Skaw
posted 05-03-2004 01:35:42 PM
quote:
Zair wrote this then went back to looking for porn:
This is why I am honestly concerned about another 4 years of Bush. Hell, in the second four years he doesn't even have to worry about public opinion.

The fact that there are many Americans ok with this policy of unlimited detaining is even more disturbing.


Dem dar terreosts are taking muh freedums.

Mr. Parcelan
posted 05-03-2004 01:37:24 PM
quote:
Skaw's unholy Backstreet Boys obsession manifested in:
Dem dar terreosts are taking muh freedums.

DEY TOOK YER JAERB!

Katrinity
Cookie Goddess!
posted 05-03-2004 01:38:35 PM
quote:
Check out the big brain on Mr. Parcelan!
DEY TOOK YER JAERB!

DEEE TUUK AAARRR JAROARABS!

Cookie Goddess Supreme
Furry Kitsune of Power!
Pouncer of the 12th degree!
"Cxularath ftombn gonoragh pv'iornw hqxoxon targh!"
Translated: "Sell your soul for a cookie?"
Zair
The Imp
posted 05-03-2004 01:44:14 PM
That isn't fair. These terrorists have just as much of a right to uphold their culture as we do!

Mr. Parcelan
posted 05-03-2004 01:45:02 PM
Thank you, Aging Hippy Liberal Douche.
Zair
The Imp
posted 05-03-2004 01:50:50 PM
quote:
Mr. Parcelan had this to say about John Romero:
Thank you, Aging Hippy Liberal Douche.

You betcha

Skaw
posted 05-03-2004 01:50:55 PM
If you love America, you'll join in!

Back to the pile!

No I don't wan't a chicken sandwich. I want a fucking double cheeseburger and fries you god damn fucking goobacks!

Skaw fucked around with this message on 05-03-2004 at 01:53 PM.

Karnaj
Road Warrior Queef
posted 05-03-2004 01:56:04 PM
quote:
Mr. Parcelan put down Tada! magazine long enough to type:
DEY TOOK YER JAERB!

DUCK A DEEERRRP

That's the American Dream: to make your life into something you can sell. - Chuck Palahniuk, Haunted

Under capitalism, man exploits man. Under communism, it's just the opposite. - John Kenneth Galbraith



Beer.

Maradon!
posted 05-03-2004 01:59:46 PM
Yeah, let's ignore rationality in favor of starting an anti-bush panic. After all, ever since the economy started recovering we don't have any REAL issues to complain about.

Let's start by dispelling a few of the grossly erronious assumptions of these articles:

1) Just because an enemy combatant can be detained without a trial doesn't mean they can be held forever with no rights. Detained enemy combatants are treated as prisoners of war and protected by the Geneva convention and international law.

2) Not just anyone can be branded an enemy combatant. This isn't a blank check to snatch innocent people out of the streets. The only idiots who actually believe this obviously haven't even read the proposed act, which limits enemy combatants to those committing offenses as listed under section 2332b(g)(5)(B) of title 18 of US Code which is already in effect.

The only thing this act would do is allow TERRORISTS - not foreign or domestic innocents, not non-terrorist criminals, not political opponents - to be held as prisoners of war as enemy combatants are.

Mod
Pancake
posted 05-03-2004 02:06:25 PM
quote:
Maradon! had this to say about Knight Rider:
Yeah, let's ignore rationality in favor of starting an anti-bush panic. After all, ever since the economy started recovering we don't have any REAL issues to complain about.

Let's start by dispelling a few of the grossly erronious assumptions of these articles:

1) Just because an enemy combatant can be detained without a trial doesn't mean they can be held forever with no rights. Detained enemy combatants are treated as prisoners of war and protected by the Geneva convention and international law.

2) Not just anyone can be branded an enemy combatant. This isn't a blank check to snatch innocent people out of the streets. The only idiots who actually believe this obviously haven't even read the proposed act, which limits enemy combatants to those committing offenses as listed under section 2332b(g)(5)(B) of title 18 of US Code which is already in effect.

The only thing this act would do is allow TERRORISTS - not foreign or domestic innocents, not non-terrorist criminals, not political opponents - to be held as prisoners of war as enemy combatants are.


There's a difference between a terrorist and a suspected terrorist. Becoming a suspected terrorist is easy, becoming a terrorists actually requires you to be involved in terrorist activity.

Life... is like a box of chocolates. A cheap, thoughtless, perfunctory gift that nobody ever asks for. Unreturnable, because all you get back is another box of chocolates. You're stuck with this undefinable whipped-mint crap that you mindlessly wolf down when there's nothing else left to eat. Sure, once in a while, there's a peanut butter cup, or an English toffee. But they're gone too fast, the taste is fleeting. So you end up with nothing but broken bits, filled with hardened jelly and teeth-crunching nuts, and if you're desperate enough to eat those, all you've got left is a... is an empty box... filled with useless, brown paper wrappers.
Maradon!
posted 05-03-2004 02:11:40 PM
quote:
x--ModO-('-'Q) :
There's a difference between a terrorist and a suspected terrorist. Becoming a suspected terrorist is easy, becoming a terrorists actually requires you to be involved in terrorist activity.

That's covered in the section of US code I linked. You can't be held as an enemy combatant unless you can be proven to "create[s] a substantial risk of serious bodily injury to any other person by destroying or damaging any structure, conveyance, or other real or personal property within the United States or by attempting or conspiring to destroy or damage any structure, conveyance, or other real or personal property within the United States"

Remeber, Section 2332b(g)(5)(B) is ALREADY IN EFFECT. The proposed changes do NOT alter the definition of a suspected terrorist.

Face it, the only people you can fool into panic over this are the grossly ignorant.

Maradon! fucked around with this message on 05-03-2004 at 02:12 PM.

Vecchio Hickory
Pancake
posted 05-03-2004 02:42:28 PM
Maradon, you might want to recheck your facts. Being an enemy combatant actually excludes you from the Geneva Convention. Which is why the Bush administration wanted them classified as such; they wouldn't have the protections and rights spelled out under the Geneva Convention.

Vecchio Hickory fucked around with this message on 05-03-2004 at 02:46 PM.

Karnaj
Road Warrior Queef
posted 05-03-2004 02:43:11 PM
OK, so why is that Padilla fellow being held, then?
That's the American Dream: to make your life into something you can sell. - Chuck Palahniuk, Haunted

Under capitalism, man exploits man. Under communism, it's just the opposite. - John Kenneth Galbraith



Beer.

Mod
Pancake
posted 05-03-2004 03:12:42 PM
quote:
ACES! Another post by Maradon!:
That's covered in the section of US code I linked. You can't be held as an enemy combatant unless you can be proven to "create[s] a substantial risk of serious bodily injury to any other person by destroying or damaging any structure, conveyance, or other real or personal property within the United States or by attempting or conspiring to destroy or damage any structure, conveyance, or other real or personal property within the United States"

Remeber, Section 2332b(g)(5)(B) is ALREADY IN EFFECT. The proposed changes do NOT alter the definition of a suspected terrorist.

Face it, the only people you can fool into panic over this are the grossly ignorant.


Who decides when it is 'proven' someone creates a substantial risk?

Life... is like a box of chocolates. A cheap, thoughtless, perfunctory gift that nobody ever asks for. Unreturnable, because all you get back is another box of chocolates. You're stuck with this undefinable whipped-mint crap that you mindlessly wolf down when there's nothing else left to eat. Sure, once in a while, there's a peanut butter cup, or an English toffee. But they're gone too fast, the taste is fleeting. So you end up with nothing but broken bits, filled with hardened jelly and teeth-crunching nuts, and if you're desperate enough to eat those, all you've got left is a... is an empty box... filled with useless, brown paper wrappers.
nem-x
posted 05-03-2004 03:14:05 PM
Azizza
VANDERSHANKED
posted 05-03-2004 03:17:46 PM
quote:
Vecchio Hickory was naked while typing this:
Maradon, you might want to recheck your facts. Being an enemy combatant actually excludes you from the Geneva Convention. Which is why the Bush administration wanted them classified as such; they wouldn't have the protections and rights spelled out under the Geneva Convention.

Wow you can't read can you.

"Pacifism is a privilege of the protected"
very important poster
a sweet title
posted 05-03-2004 03:20:14 PM
Azizza has arrived, as always with a clever and well-founded response.
hey
Nina
posted 05-03-2004 03:21:21 PM
Skaw
posted 05-03-2004 03:50:26 PM
quote:
We were all impressed when Azizza wrote:
Wow you can't read can you.

Wow, you can't punctuate.

Naimah
In a Fire
posted 05-03-2004 04:05:33 PM
quote:
Skaw's unholy Backstreet Boys obsession manifested in:
Wow, you can't punctuate.

You are obviously correct. You can nit pick grammer better and thus have the better argument.

JooJooFlop
Hungry Hungry Hippo
posted 05-03-2004 04:05:53 PM
quote:
Skaw had this to say about Duck Tales:
Wow, you can't punctuate.

He hasn't been able to for a little while now, leave it alone. Could be part of some horrible brain malfunction for all you know.

I don't know how to be sexy. If I catch a girl looking at me and our eyes lock, I panic and open mine wider. Then I lick my lips and rub my genitals. And mouth the words "You're dead."
Skaw
posted 05-03-2004 04:07:09 PM
quote:
Naimah's unholy Backstreet Boys obsession manifested in:
You are obviously correct. You can nit pick grammer better and thus have the better argument.

I am Victor. Whats your name?

Zair
The Imp
posted 05-03-2004 04:11:27 PM
quote:
Naimah had this to say about John Romero:
You are obviously correct. You can nit pick grammer better and thus have the better argument.

Azizza had an argument?

Vecchio Hickory
Pancake
posted 05-03-2004 04:23:17 PM
How can't I read Azziza? My point was about this:


quote:
1) Just because an enemy combatant can be detained without a trial doesn't mean they can be held forever with no rights. Detained enemy combatants are treated as prisoners of war and protected by the Geneva convention and international law.

That isn't true. Enemy combatants are NOT protected by the Geneva Convention as POW's.

Snugglits
I LIKE TO ABUSE THE ALERT MOD BUTTON AND I ENJOY THE FLAVOR OF SWEET SWEET COCK.
posted 05-03-2004 04:25:33 PM
quote:
Vecchio Hickory spewed forth this undeniable truth:
How can't I read Azziza? My point was about this:


That isn't true. Enemy combatants are NOT protected by the Geneva Convention as POW's.


change your fucking sigpic

[b].sig removed by Mr. Parcelan[/b]
Mr. Parcelan
posted 05-03-2004 04:27:43 PM
quote:
Karnaj had this to say about (_|_):
OK, so why is that Padilla fellow being held, then?

He's got a stupid last name.

Gunslinger Moogle
No longer a gimmick
posted 05-03-2004 04:36:40 PM
quote:
Waisz stopped beating up furries long enough to write:
change your fucking sigpic



moogle is the 3241727861th binary digit of pi

Disclaimer: I'm just kidding, I love all living things.
The fastest draw in the Crest.
"The Internet is MY critical thinking course." -Maradon
"Gambling for the husband, an abortion for the wife and fireworks for the kids they chose to keep? Fuck you, Disneyland. The Pine Ridge Indian Reservation is the happiest place on Earth." -JooJooFlop

Noxhil
Pancake
posted 05-03-2004 04:51:13 PM
quote:
Check out the big brain on Maradon!!
Yeah, let's ignore rationality in favor of starting an anti-bush panic. After all, ever since the economy started recovering we don't have any REAL issues to complain about.

Let's start by dispelling a few of the grossly erronious assumptions of these articles:

1) Just because an enemy combatant can be detained without a trial doesn't mean they can be held forever with no rights. Detained enemy combatants are treated as prisoners of war and protected by the Geneva convention and international law.

2) Not just anyone can be branded an enemy combatant. This isn't a blank check to snatch innocent people out of the streets. The only idiots who actually believe this obviously haven't even read the proposed act, which limits enemy combatants to those committing offenses as listed under section 2332b(g)(5)(B) of title 18 of US Code which is already in effect.

The only thing this act would do is allow TERRORISTS - not foreign or domestic innocents, not non-terrorist criminals, not political opponents - to be held as prisoners of war as enemy combatants are.


You're wrong on both accounts actually. As Vecchio stated, enemy combatants are not protected under the Geneva convention, especially as the real pertinent case applies to U.S. citizens.

As for your second "point," who decides who the enemy combatants are? Surely not the courts. No, guess where all the power is concentrated? I'll save you the trouble, the Executive branch. That's right boys and girls, checks and balances have effectively been eliminated from the Government... after all... the framers had no clue what they were talking about right? I would mention Ex Parte Milligan but I'm not really sure it totally applies to here. Surely the writ of Habeas corpus was useless and wrong? Lincoln suspended it, so it must just be some dumb legal thing that keeps Monkey Man (tm) from finding his WMD (tm).

No, your innane belief that Bush/Ashcroft/Whoever the hell is President/Attorney General in the future will not abuse this is quite simply naive. A Lord Acton made a comment in a letter over a century ago with the (now) famous line "Power tends to corrupt." I remember the Solicitor General made an argument last week to a Supreme Court Justice that (I think... I have since thrown away the paper) illustrates this. The Justice asks what is to stop prisoners from being abused (read: tortured) with no oversight? He responds "Well, a U.S. President would never do that."

But isn't that the point?

I will use a slippery slide argument here, because I believe that it is a truely valid point. Once you begin suspending rights that have been enshrined in the constitution and have kept this country going for 2 centuries, you have sacrificed everything the country was built on. I'm sure in the 50's/60's it seemed like a great idea to throw all those "Blacks" in jail, because surely thay can't be equal to "Whites?" Fortunately *noone* (well, no normal people) questioned the ruling of the courts, and unlike the general disdain that the current government, much to my dismay, shows to the courts, these rulings were carried out, allowing the "slippery slope" for near-equal rights that we enjoy today.

I hope to hell that the courts rightfully throw the Gov't's argument out the door and declare this and the about to expire PATRIOT act as being mistakes. We do not need to sacrifice who we are and the basic tenements of civil rights to fight terrorism.

Ja'Deth Issar Ka'bael
I posted in a title changing thread.
posted 05-03-2004 07:54:31 PM
quote:
Noxhil had this to say about Optimus Prime:
tenements of civil rights

You had me right up until there. The word you're looking for is "Tenets" not "Tenement".

Lyinar's sweetie and don't you forget it!*
"All those moments will be lost in time, like tears in rain. Time to die. -Roy Batty
*Also Lyinar's attack panda

sigpic courtesy of This Guy, original modified by me

Noxhil
Pancake
posted 05-03-2004 08:21:16 PM
quote:
Check out the big brain on Ja'Deth Issar Ka'bael!
You had me right up until there. The word you're looking for is "Tenets" not "Tenement".

Wow thank you. I seem to keep mispeaking (well, mistyping) on this forum. First "stigmata" then "tenement" .

Drysart
Pancake
posted 05-03-2004 08:47:45 PM
quote:
Maradon! came out of the closet to say:
1) Just because an enemy combatant can be detained without a trial doesn't mean they can be held forever with no rights. Detained enemy combatants are treated as prisoners of war and protected by the Geneva convention and international law.

Like everyone in Guantanamo Bay? Oh wait, according to Bush they're not covered under the Geneva Convention because they're terrorists, not agents of a foreign government.

quote:
Maradon! came out of the closet to say:
2) Not just anyone can be branded an enemy combatant. This isn't a blank check to snatch innocent people out of the streets. The only idiots who actually believe this obviously haven't even read the proposed act, which limits enemy combatants to those committing offenses as listed under section 2332b(g)(5)(B) of title 18 of US Code which is already in effect.

If the law's already in effect, why do they need another one? One that completely circumvents the Constitution, no less?

quote:
Maradon! came out of the closet to say:
The only thing this act would do is allow TERRORISTS - not foreign or domestic innocents, not non-terrorist criminals, not political opponents - to be held as prisoners of war as enemy combatants are.

That's what they said about the Patriot Act. That it'd only be used against TERRORISTS -- like people who run adult establishments in Nevada, and the [redacted] that the ACLU is helping [redacted] file a [redacted] court case against.

All times are US/Eastern
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