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Y.O.T.C obviously shouldn't have said:

Other: Ok, if you want to piss the dm off like all hell in a hand basket. lvl 1 pally lvl x sorc

All the pally bonuses includeing the cha mod to saving throws. I refuse to ever let anyone use this, as my friend down the hall showed me a character with +23 on his will save and i looked at him funny.(at lvl 15 and hes half celestrial)

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You refuse to let a character use a class feature? I hope you give some very good compensation for taking away one of the only two things the class gets at level 2.

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Densetsu painfully thought these words up:
You refuse to let a character use a class feature? I hope you give some very good compensation for taking away one of the only two things the class gets at level 2.

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I think he means a multiclass 1 Paladin / 1 Sorceror, in which case yes, he would have no Paladin abilities even by the rules.

A Paladin / Sorc is a horrible combination at such a low level - and almost any level - because it's essentially a low-HP Fighter with fourth rate spells. Look out, world!

If you really want to cheese some shit up, a Human Rogue/Ranger is the multiclass to use. Sneak Attack can be used on bow shots of 1/2 range increment (I think, it may just be 30ft period) and the extra Human feats and skills allow for earlier grabbing of nice Bow-oriented feats. Not to mention both classes are Dexterity whores.*

* I do not condone cheesetastic min/maxing of this degree except in situations where it is needed. i.e.: You're the sole melee character in a three or four person party.

D fucked around with this message on 01-21-2005 at 11:08 AM.

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Y.O.T.C probably says this to all the girls:
Fal and addy: Freedom of information act rox.

Other: Ok, if you want to piss the dm off like all hell in a hand basket. lvl 1 pally lvl x sorc

All the pally bonuses includeing the cha mod to saving throws. I refuse to ever let anyone use this, as my friend down the hall showed me a character with +23 on his will save and i looked at him funny.(at lvl 15 and hes half celestrial)

Otherwise id say start out with an idea and fill out Supplemental #5 for that idea, then make the character. It's what I did for Kats game, and that worked well.

githyanki and gitzari or however the other guys are spelled are 2 different races. Both are ecl+2 or +4 cant remember off top of head as i dont have a 3.5 MM to check. The 2 races hate eachother with a passion and are quite fun to play as. Mostly for the Giant Great sword the Githyanki get(get a Mercurial one and make that magicized at 7 as you need to get the exotic weapon profeciency anyways). Beware, their psionic powers tend to make them easy to power game with, and i hate doing that.

or you could just play a human

Edit:
Do you have that speach saved somewhere? I could swear I've read it before...

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1. I don't have the speech saved, but I have said that all before in a slightly different form.

2. I'd rather have solid persons who could be another class, than have a walking character classes with no personality.

3. Keep in mind that a paladin who stops being a paladin still has some pretty rigid strictures if he wants to keep the bonuses (and can't easily go back to being a paladin).

If you want real cheese, roll up a jack of all trade type with level 1 in lots of different classes. Insane saves like no other.

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Elvish Crack Piper had this to say about John Romero:
Insane saves like no other.

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And just about nothing else.

If you stick to the core melees (Barb, Fighter, Paladin, Ranger, and maybe Cleric) you can squeak out a decent Base Attack Bonus, but your HP will most likely be shitty, and you'll have no class defining abilities. Skill points could go in either direction, if you pick up Bard and Rogue, but still. It wouldn't work that well, and would be impossible to explain in-character.

Unless you're Bajah.

I had access to much more than the just the core classes. So I didnt use em. At level 20 I would have had a +18 BAB, I made every attempt to only choose fighter BAB classes(we had a huge amount of DnD books, easily 300 classes and PClasses between them + dragon/dungeon)

It was 20 levels of 1 classe, I had it planned at 10 levels of hexblade and 11 level 1 of other classes, alternating level gain.

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Ja'Deth Issar Ka'bael attempted to be funny by writing:
...which is why GM's shouldn't just blindly allow anything published in a book to be used.

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ANYTHING ON PAPER IS VALID UNDER THE OPEN GAMING LICENSE

*scribbles furiously on a napkin to present rule changes to his DM*

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Y.O.T.C had this to say about Reading Rainbow:
showed me a character with +23 on his will save and i looked at him funny.(at lvl 15 and hes half celestrial)

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Sancia (Half-Elf Cleric) has like +22 Will at level 15.

Which is quite a liability in hypothetical PvP situations, as most of my Sorc's best spells are mind controlling/altering.

If a stat becomes a part of your character, and you nurture it throughout the progression, it can be lolhuge, as opposed to "If I roll up a level 15 Cleric, I only get this"

Like my Sorc's Spell DC is 20+ Spell Level. I've taken steps in almost every avenue to make that DC harder and harder to resist, because my sorceress is very insistant on getting her way, and has a very forceful will.
It certainly has nothing to do with the fact that I hate it when monsters save against my spells

Lashanna fucked around with this message on 01-21-2005 at 02:23 PM.

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D's account was hax0red to write:
ANYTHING ON PAPER IS VALID UNDER THE OPEN GAMING LICENSE

*scribbles furiously on a napkin to present rule changes to his DM*

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hee hee...

Seriously, though. That's a trap GM's fall into easily. You buy the book, you want to use it. So you accept it as fair game without really thinking about the consequences.

Worse, a player buys and official book and wheedles and whines about why can't they use this book of stuff

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When the babel fish was in place, it was apparent D said:
I think he means a multiclass 1 Paladin / 1 Sorceror, in which case yes, he would have no Paladin abilities even by the rules.

A Paladin / Sorc is a horrible combination at such a low level - and almost any level - because it's essentially a low-HP Fighter with fourth rate spells. Look out, world!

If you really want to cheese some shit up, a Human Rogue/Ranger is the multiclass to use. Sneak Attack can be used on bow shots of 1/2 range increment (I think, it may just be 30ft period) and the extra Human feats and skills allow for earlier grabbing of nice Bow-oriented feats. Not to mention both classes are Dexterity whores.*

* I do not condone cheesetastic min/maxing of this degree except in situations where it is needed. i.e.: You're the sole melee character in a three or four person party.

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I didn't notice that he meant multiclassing. Either way, to get the ability he was talking about, you'd need to be Paladin level 2, not 1. And if he multiclassed, he would actually keep his Paladin abilities. He would be unable to take more levels in Paladin, but unless he somehow became an ex-paladin, he's free to multiclass to something else and retain his Paladin abilities.

Although it's pretty crazy to limit yourself to the Lawful Good alignment and follow the paladin's code just to learn 2 levels of it for the purpose of getting your charisma bonus on saving throws, and then go sorcerer the rest of your career, while maintaining your alignment and code.

[edit: Oh, and it's a max of 30ft for ranged sneak attack.]

Densetsu fucked around with this message on 01-21-2005 at 04:03 PM.

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Densetsu had this to say about Reading Rainbow:
[edit: Oh, and it's a max of 30ft for ranged sneak attack.]

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thx. Was stuck at work, no access to handbooks.

And as for Pal/Sorc, I can't see any real conceivable reason to stray from Paladin to Sorceror without changing one's alignment.

But none of that really matters, anyway,

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Sean had this to say about Optimus Prime:
thx. Was stuck at work, no access to handbooks.

And as for Pal/Sorc, I can't see any real conceivable reason to stray from Paladin to Sorceror without changing one's alignment.

But none of that really matters, anyway,

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I agree, but then again, I also think PAladins should have their very own unique alignment. Zealot, or something like that. You can be Lawful Good without being anything like a Paladin at all.

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Lyinar Ka`Bael painfully thought these words up:
How the hell do you get a +22 to Will as a half elf cleric?

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Really high WIS score and Iron Will?

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Everyone wondered WTF when Ruvyen wrote:
Really high WIS score and Iron Will?

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A score in the 20s still only gives +5 or +6 and if you go much higher than that it's just getting nutty. Iron Will can only be taken once from what I gather, since it does not specify you can take it more than once in the PHB, so it would all still only come up to +17 or +18 at level 15.

+9 for a cleric's level 15 will save, +2 for iron will, the wisdom bonus, and you can't really include the half elf racial bonus of +2 because that's enchantments only and not all will rolls are going to be specifically for enchantments.

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Lashanna impressed everyone with:

If a stat becomes a part of your character, and you nurture it throughout the progression, it can be lolhuge, as opposed to "If I roll up a level 15 Cleric, I only get this"

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Plus this only works to a certain degree. By 15 you only have three chances to upgrade your wisdom ability score past the maximum you can roll it, which is 18. That means it can only be 21 at the highest, giving you a +5 mod for it.

Sorry for the misunderstanding.

Lashanna fucked around with this message on 01-22-2005 at 12:12 AM.

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Densetsu was listening to Cher while typing:
I agree, but then again, I also think PAladins should have their very own unique alignment. Zealot, or something like that. You can be Lawful Good without being anything like a Paladin at all.

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Paladins really don't have to be homocidally fanatical.

There are plenty of very dedicated religious folk, who take some pretty big risks (international relief efforts in dangerous areas etc) who aren't necessarily whacko...

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Ja'Deth Issar Ka'bael thought this was the Ricky Martin Fan Club Forum and wrote:
Rogue/Ranger is also nice because so many class skills relating to stealth stack, the 3.5 Ranger's combat styles are handy, and as pointed out, the stat spread is about equal.

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Rogue/Ranger on a werewolf makes for one badass in the forest, but he's kinda sad in direct combat or city settings. Well, when he's trying to hide the fact that he's a werewolf, that is. If you go all fur and fangs, then all bets are off.

You know, that GM is supposed to start that game up again someday. I want to play him again, poor bastard that he was...

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Lashanna got all f'ed up on Angel Dust and wrote:
Paladins really don't have to be homocidally fanatical.

There are plenty of very dedicated religious folk, who take some pretty big risks (international relief efforts in dangerous areas etc) who aren't necessarily whacko...

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I never said homocidally fanatical. The point is, a Paladin acts vastly different than your average PC or NPC of the exact same alignment. It also tends to keep less knowledgable people away from playing Lawful Good characters because they think it means acting like a Paladin. On DM I played with thought that my Lawful Good Monk had to act just like a Paladin. Misconceptions like that point out the obvious difference.

Basically, my point is that there is Lawful Good, and then there is Paladin.

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ACES! Another post by Densetsu:
Basically, my point is that there is Lawful Good, and then there is Paladin.

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And then there are the ones that make Paladins look like slackers in the morals department.

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So quoth Palador ChibiDragon:
And then there are the ones that make Paladins look like slackers in the morals department.

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The Paladin I am playing currently is kind of like that. I'll just sort of go off into another room and do something else while leaving something up to the Rogue, and not ask any questions. It annoys the DM thoroughly.

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Palador ChibiDragon wrote, obviously thinking too hard:
Rogue/Ranger on a werewolf makes for one badass in the forest, but he's kinda sad in direct combat or city settings. Well, when he's trying to hide the fact that he's a werewolf, that is. If you go all fur and fangs, then all bets are off.

You know, that GM is supposed to start that game up again someday. I want to play him again, poor bastard that he was...

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Had a werewolf druid in HS2...was kinda cool. He hadn't learned to control it at will, so anything could potentially cause him to start wolfing out.

My hands down best one of all time though started out as a dwarven fighter. He ended up as an epic level fighter / cleric / templar / dwarven defender. Talk about crack saves, but at the same time was by no means a min-max munchkin

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Lashanna stopped beating up furries long enough to write:
As has been pointed out to me by the Half-Elf Cleric's player, she's not just a Half-Elf Cleric, she's also a Contemplative, which is a Cleric prestige class, shrug.

Sorry for the misunderstanding.

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How many levels in cleric and how many in Contemplative? And I know what a Contemplative is. I have my own. Her will was nowhere near that, and she's even an elf.

Lyinar Ka`Bael fucked around with this message on 01-22-2005 at 04:54 PM.

Unless Lash said that +22 is her base. If so then i missed it and am also of the confused.

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A sleep deprived Dr. Gee stammered:
She probably has items enhancing both her Wisdom and Will save Lyinar. Or spells.

Unless Lash said that +22 is her base. If so then i missed it and am also of the confused.

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She's only level 15 Gee, and apparently splitting those fifteen levels between both cleric and Contemplative. You can't even get Contemplative until a certain level, because if I'm remembering it correctly (I don't have Amanithil's sheet handy), you need certain feats and a certain number of ranks in key skills.

At level 15 you might reasonably see a wisdom of 21, possibly 22, but anything higher than that at that level is just nutty. There are some demigods who are barely past that much in wisdom.

So ya, it's easily doable.

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The logic train ran off the tracks when Dr. Gee said:
So she has a base 15. Owl's Wisdom makes it 17, so she needs +4 from items to make it +21. That's easily doable by 15 if you focus on it and it also doesn't include feats.

So ya, it's easily doable.

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Not quite. I don't know what a Contemplative is, but a level 10 Cleric has a +7 base will save. I somehow doubt that 5 levels in any class adds another +8 to the base save. If we assume a Contemplative has the same Will progression as a Cleric, then that's a base of +9 at 15th character level. +4 Wisdom mod is +13 so far. Let's assume the Iron Will feat. That's a total of +15.

The leaves a difference of +7 to be made up with nothing but items. Like I said, I don't know what a Contemplative is, and I'm not including the Half-Elf bonus to will versus enchantments (which would make it +17, leaving a difference of +5).

While this could be made up for in items at the cost of anything but Will save, I'm a bit curious as to how it is done exactly.

[Edit: The first two letters do not a word make.]

Densetsu fucked around with this message on 01-23-2005 at 12:34 AM.

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Densetsu was naked while typing this:
Not quite. I don't know what a Contemplative is, but a level 10 Cleric has a +7 base will save. I somehow doubt that 5 levels in any class adds another +8 to the base save. If we assume a Contemplative has the same Will progression as a Cleric, then that's a base of +9 at 15th character level. +4 Wisdom mod is +13 so far. Let's assume the Iron Will feat. That's a total of +15.

The leaves a difference of +7 to be made up with nothing but items. Like I said, I don't know what a Contemplative is, and I'm not including the Half-Elf bonus to will versus enchantments (which would make it +17, leaving a difference of +5).

While this could be made up for in items at the cost of anything but Will save, I'm a bit curious as to how it is done exactly.

[Edit: The first two letters do not a word make.]

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I counted the base Wis bonus (+4) in the save. And a Contemplative gets a +4 to Will at 5th. I have the Complete Divine in front of me.

So 7 (10th Cleric) + 4 (5th Contemplative) + 4 (Wis) = +15 total. Casting Owl's Wisdom (A 2nd level spell. She has 5 + 1 (bonus) + Domain since she casts spells as a 15th level Cleric due to getting an effective spell level per Contemplative level in a Divine class of choice. So having one buff spell with a 15 hour duration is something i'd do if i could.) gives her another +2 on the save (the spell gives +4 Wis for 1hr/caster level under 3.0 rules which my group uses for buffs, since 1min/caster level defeats the whole purpose of them).

Add Iron Will (+2 Will) and that gives you a +19 Will without any items. I'm betting that by level 15 she has a cloak/ring of resistance +2 which would bump up to +21.

And with what ZaZa said, she'd have a +22 with my scheme, so there you go.

And if it were me, i'd have a +4 Wis item if possible rather than using a spell slot. Gots to save me them slots for the Bull's Strength!

Dr. Gee fucked around with this message on 01-23-2005 at 01:41 AM.

[Edit: Also assuming that the Contemplative's (hereby referred to as "Cont.") Will progression is "Good" like the Cleric's, then she would have base of +7 at level 10 Cleric. After this, should would recieve +2 from level 1 Cont. (+9). Level 2 Cont. adds another +1 save (+10). Level 3 Cont. would not add another to the save (it goes from +3 to +3, thus, no change) (+10). Level 4 Cont. would add another to the save (+11). Level 5 Cont. would not add another to the save (+11).

So, base of +11, wisdom of +4, Iron Will of +2. +16 so far. We know that she has one item that adds +3. +19 now. We're still missing another +3 not including spell buffs or racial bonus to enchantments.]

Densetsu fucked around with this message on 01-23-2005 at 02:39 AM.