I haven't honestly even looked over the rules for them in 3.0/3.5 because I hated them so much in AD&D. So I could just be biased without giving them a chance.

However, just from an opinion standpoint, I feel they bring too much of a Sci-Fi feel to a Fantasy setting and if I want Sci-Fi, I'll play Shadowrun. I'm not overly fond of the idea of having mental powers in a campaign due to it adding more complications to an already rules-laden game, anyway. I suppose it could work in a campaign where you do away with magic in favor of psionics, but when you have both, it just seems hectic and conflicting.

Am I overreacting? I guess I just prefer Sword and magic D&D over Sword, magic, & Other Crap D&D

Anyway, I just wanted to get a feel of opinions on the other people of the board since we have such a large quantity of people here that share the pasttime.

Edit: I can't put a '&' in the subject?
Edit2: Hah! It took an edit, but that fixed it.

Bajah fucked around with this message on 04-20-2005 at 12:50 PM.

The Good: Who wouldn't mind having reality-bending mental abilities?
The Bad: Everyone.

I think if added to an already created world(Forgotten Realms, Dragonlance) they can drastically upset the balance of....well everything, and definitely give the world more of a Sci-Fi feel.

I voted other, so that was my explanation

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This is what Ferret is doing. This is what I want Ferret to do :

I like them. Gives a kind of trinity feel to it due to them bypassing magic but there being a buffer topsionic attacks against normal people. Makes a kind of rock paper scissors thing between psionics, magic, and combat. Except with more fire.

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Would you mind explaining that a bit more? Are you referring to 3.0/3.5 stuff? What's this about bypassing magic but there being a buffer for normal people? I'm afraid your explanation doesn't really tell me much :/

However, I have yet to use them in 3.0 because when I read through my friend's copy of the original 3.0 book, I was so disappointed and disgusted that I simply quit using them. I've just come across a copy of Psionics Extended, however, so there may still be hope.

It all depends on how you want to play it. If you treat psionics as a sci-fi addon, it will be. If you RP it as someone who eschews magic, but can use his inner resources (his mind) instead, it's a little different. (This aspect was stolen by those lousy sorcerers. Grr...) It's also a nice surprise for the psionicist who keeps Mind Probing everyone in sight to make him roll for psionic combat. Oops. But don't just throw it at them once in a while, in a "let's screw with the psionicist alone" encounter. Make it part of your world and it will come into its own. Or you'll hate it and ignore it like you do now. I'm just suggesting that you try it first.

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This insanity brought to you by Bajah:
Would you mind explaining that a bit more? Are you referring to 3.0/3.5 stuff? What's this about bypassing magic but there being a buffer for normal people? I'm afraid your explanation doesn't really tell me much :/

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As Psionics are written in D&D it is a seperate system than conventional magic, so that all those Magic Resistance 30 robes that the high levels covet so greatly is completly ignore. Also alot of the saving throws seem to be fortitude, which alot of casters sacrifice in order to have additional spells. This lets me throw a curveball to my players occasionally and keeps them from getting the 'We're the most powerful, hurr hurr hurr' feeling. Plus the power Point system just makes more sense to me than spells per level.

Yes 3.0/3.5.

Alot of the mainly psionic attacks (Ego whip, id insinuation, etc) Are subject to a non psionic buffer, meaning that if you aren't psionic you get something like +8 for the saving throw.

Ferret fucked around with this message on 04-20-2005 at 01:14 PM.

A campaign based in a world that's driven by psionics and not magic? Great. A campaign driven by magic? Equally great.

Together? Well, then you've got too much of a conflict, imo.

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Entertain me with more of your bullshit, Mr. Parcelan.
Together? Well, then you've got too much of a conflict, imo.

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What if the backdrop is a war between Psions and Mages?

That sounds pretty sweet imo

Dark Sun was made for Psionics being a post-apocolyptic world where nearly every being has developed special powers to help them survive the barren wastes.

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This insanity brought to you by Ferret:
As Psionics are written in D&D it is a seperate system than conventional magic, so that all those Magic Resistance 30 robes that the high levels covet so greatly is completly ignore. Also alot of the saving throws seem to be fortitude, which alot of casters sacrifice in order to have additional spells. This lets me throw a curveball to my players occasionally and keeps them from getting the 'We're the most powerful, hurr hurr hurr' feeling. Plus the power Point system just makes more sense to me than spells per level.

Yes 3.0/3.5.

Alot of the mainly psionic attacks (Ego whip, id insinuation, etc) Are subject to a non psionic buffer, meaning that if you aren't psionic you get something like +8 for the saving throw.

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Greetings,

In the XPH (Expanded Psionics Handbook ie 3.5 Psionics) Psionic Combat is gone, no more attack and defense modes. Also as written there is a Psionic-Magic Transparency, so spell resistance also applies to Psionics. Dispel Magic affects psionic abilities and vice versa.

One of the biggest changes to the Psionics system in the XPH is that powers are no longer tied directly to level. For example the Psionic version of Fireball is not 1d6 points of damage per level. It is a straight up 5d6 points of damage, but the Psion can augment the damage and DC by pumping more power points into the power. This allows a Psion a little more flexability in their power selection, but greatly limits them in the arena of staying power. It is important to note that you cannot spend more power points on a power than your manifester level. So now level 5 Psions throwing 17d6 fireballs etc, etc, etc.

As to if Psionics is good in 3.5? I think it is, a well designed Psion will highlight the versitility and power of the core spell casting classes (Wizard and Cleric). The only real loser is the Sorcerer, but that problem is not the fault of the Psion.

I would highly recommend picking up the XPH and taking a look yourself. I think it adds a lot to a game especially for players who want to play something a little different. If you intend to play in an Eberron Campaign then the XPH is almost required now as Psionics is fairly heavily intergrated into that setting.

Tyewa Dawnsister fucked around with this message on 04-20-2005 at 02:37 PM.

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Tyewa Dawnsister had this to say about Cuba:
If you intend to play in an Eberron Campaign then the XPH is almost required now as Psionics is fairly heavily intergrated into that setting.

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I disagree with that. It's quite possible to go through an Eberron campaign without ever encountering psionics. If you have a player who wants to be a Kalashtar they give a "Non-Psionics Handbook" version of the racial special ability they get.

Eberron is well done in term of psionics in that if you want to play a psionics campaign you can, but if you don't want to removing the psionics from the campaign setting only removes a small amount of the total content.

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Nobody really understood why Dr. Gee wrote:
I disagree with that. It's quite possible to go through an Eberron campaign without ever encountering psionics. If you have a player who wants to be a Kalashtar they give a "Non-Psionics Handbook" version of the racial special ability they get.

Eberron is well done in term of psionics in that if you want to play a psionics campaign you can, but if you don't want to removing the psionics from the campaign setting only removes a small amount of the total content.

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Greetings,

Attempting to do anything with the Inspired is downright impossible without the use of the XPH. Also the "non-psionic" version of the Kalashtar is weak. Sure they turned a racial ability into a spell like ability, the real power of the Kalashtar is in that they are naturaly psionic and can take psionic feats without having to be in a psionic class (or take another feat). Honestly if a group does not want psionics in their Eberron campaign they should just disallow Kalashtar.

The Eberron campaign setting as written by Keith Baker has tightly intergrated psionics. Many NPCs have levels in Psion, two races the Kalashtar and Changlings have strong psionic traditions, psionics is also heavily written into the history and cosmology. Attempting to remove psionics from Eberron greatly weakens the campaign setting in general.

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Tyewa Dawnsister needs to hitch a ride with a Vogon constructor fleet.
Greetings,

In the XPH (Expanded Psionics Handbook ie 3.5 Psionics) Psionic Combat is gone, no more attack and defense modes. Also as written there is a Psionic-Magic Transparency, so spell resistance also applies to Psionics. Dispel Magic affects psionic abilities and vice versa.

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But they need to be very rare.

And then closely regulated.

I don't even have illithid in my D&D world.

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How 'bout the power to kill a yak from 200 yards away...
with mind bullets!

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5 points to anyone who can name the song.

Falaanla Marr fucked around with this message on 04-20-2005 at 05:11 PM.

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Falaanla Marr was naked while typing this:
5 points to anyone who can name the song.

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Wonder Boy - Tenacious D

First of all, there are several ways to play Psionic characters. It all depends on how you put them into the game, and the individual characters. It can be all crystals and incense, silk scarves and gypsy lore. Or, it can be something taught only by the old monks in a hidden mountain temple, with some of the gifted living in the nearby village. It can be the wandering mystic, looking for children with "the gift" to train, or it can be the inner power that bursts forth in a moment of dire stress. You have options enough to make it have a different "feel" from the magi running around in the world.

Second, it's fairly well balanced with arcane magic. Some of the powers are the same as some spells, others are clearly based off of spells. If you can handle an arcane spellcaster in your game, odds are that a psion won't give you much trouble.

Third, while balanced, there are some interesting differences. While your average psion will have fewer powers than your average mage has spells, some of the powers are more flexable. The psionic answer to Summon Monster is just one first level power, but it scales up in power as the psion levels up because they gain the ability to pump more power into it and get bigger effects. Many damaging powers can have their damage boosted, or have their number of targets altered. Of course, dumping extra power into things like this will drain the psion faster.

Fourth, the four base classes fill understandable places in the game. While the Psion (the psionic answer to the Wizard) and the Wilder (psionic answer to the Sorc) are fairly obvious in what they do, the other two classes are a bit odd. The Psionic Warrior is, in many ways, the psionic answer to the Ranger or Paladin. They are mostly Warrior, but with some psionic abilities thrown in to give them some distinctive flair. The Soulknife is much like a psionic answer to the Monk, only instead of improving their hands they improve the sword of psionic energy they manifest. While they fill these roles, they can do so with a different feel than the other classes.

Fifth is the psionic feats. Metapsionic feats are much like metamagic feats, so I'll skip them for now. But many of the [Psionic] feats allow the characters to do interesting and unusual things. Faster movement, running up walls, improving damage, and more. While these feats are indeed powerful and unusual, they also have limits on when and how they can be used, so that you can't just load up on them and be "ninja-jedi" all the time. Still, they do allow for characters to do interesting tricks that normal character can't normally do (without decent magic, at least).

It's hard to say what else I like about psionics in DnD, other than it's a chance to make your average Wizard or Warrior yell "But you can't do that!". The power to do these things does come at a cost, but the chance to do the unusual and interesting can be worth it.

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Check out the big brain on Batty!
3.5 Psionics is simple, easy to impliment, and easy to understand. The other versions are ick.

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2nd ed Psionics were just plain broken.

Fun to abuse at least once, but damned broken.

As Batty says though, 3.5 is good.

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A sleep deprived Mr. Parcelan stammered:
I don't really like them. I think they need their own context.

A campaign based in a world that's driven by psionics and not magic? Great. A campaign driven by magic? Equally great.

Together? Well, then you've got too much of a conflict, imo.

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Parce nailed this one pretty much on the head, pretty concisely.

Why add a whole third magic system to a game if you don't have to?

The only POSSIBLE benefit to most games is that it could jazz up Mind Flayers, but frankly you could get the same overall effect with an Illithid Wizard.

If you take a setting like Athas/Dark Sun, where magic in the normal sense has been wiped out, then psionics fit exceedingly well. Allow me to point out additionally, however, that Athas was different significantly enough that Thri-Kreen and Half-Giant player characters were fairly regular/normal occurrences.

If you plopped psionics down in Faerun, for instance, or Greyhawk, it would rapidly get out of hand. For everyone's protestations that psionics can be counteracted by magic and vice versa, what you rapidly come across, because you've added two completely new BASE CLASSES, is a need for creatures specifically adapted to dealing with the influx. Even if you somehow manage having to create a reasonable-sounding new monster ecology, there's another problem:

Psionics isn't written into the vast majority of campaign settings. There's no history there, and if you tamper with what's already been written as the history, written in stone, it will have repercussions.

The Psionics Handbook (and by extension the new one, which I hear good things about, even from my fellow psi-skeptics), should have accompanied the relaunch of Dark Sun/Athas. It should NOT have been tossed out there as a supplement to add to any existing campaign setting, any more than "Ghostwalk" or "Sandstorm" necessarily fits all campaign settings.

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With great fanfare, Ja'Deth Issar Ka'bael proclamed:
And for the record, let me state that I don't "pick on" that little psionic imp Alek because he likes psionics. I pick on him because all of his stories of D&D have two elements: 1. Powergaming TO THE X-TREEM! and 2. Powergaming facilitated by the use of Psionics in campaigns and campaign settings that weren't really designed to handle them.

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Ah, I see...
*hides the character sheet for a "dire" Gnoll Psionic Warrior that he will be playing in a friend's game soon*

I've played a Ratonga Soulblade in Faerun. He was one of the races from Oriential Adventures, and from a remote village that had secluded itself to train in the mental arts. The "seclusion excuse" explained why nobody had seen that before, and I went into it knowing that there would be no special psionic-based stuff just for me. (PS: I've recently been informed that Ratonga are the one OA race NOT in Faerun. Is this true, did I mess up by playing one?)

Athas? Gods, I HATE Dark Sun.

Anyway, you don't really need special monsters to deal with psionics. The fact that magic and psionics interact now means that something that stops magic will usually stop psionics too. As for it meshing with the game, it's all about how you add it in. Personally, I'm fond of the "lost temple/village deep in the mountains" or "ancient lore, rediscovered" ways of bringing it in.

Palador ChibiDragon fucked around with this message on 04-21-2005 at 01:51 AM.

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Palador ChibiDragon thought about the meaning of life:
Athas? Gods, I HATE Dark Sun.

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<smacks Palador> Shoosh you! Dark Sun was the best campaign setting that has ever graced DnD since it's birth.

Well managed "wild" psionic powers are a lot more interesting, and far easier to balance. I played in an extremely good campaign, wherein ancient artifacts from a long forgotten war were being unearthed. The first time a person came in contact with one, there was a random chance rolled by the DM to see if it woke a wild power in them. Then, rather than becoming the focus of the PC's life, it became this extra knack they had. In context, it worked very well. Instead of complicating the game overmuch, they added flavor.

3.0/3.5 has a better psionics system, but I still favor wild powers over non-static psionic classes.

...But then again I've pretty much taken Eberron and ran with it, so I've kinda got my own little Eberron-Esque world going on.

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Katrinity got a good feeling!
<smacks Palador> Shoosh you! Dark Sun was the best campaign setting that has ever graced DnD since it's birth.

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I was always more a fan of Spelljammer, myself.

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Gunslinger Moogle had this to say about the Spice Girls:
I was always more a fan of Spelljammer, myself.

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I never got a chance to play Spelljammer, but the idea was a pretty nifty one. Couple that with Planescape and it made for Planar Pirates.

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Batty probably says this to all the girls:
Spelljammer has always held a kind of fascination for me because I've never played it, rarely have seen it, and have heard so little...but it seems so cool.

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I can empathize with that. The group that i play with now played Spelljammer for years. Their stories about the whole thing are pretty cool.

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Katrinity's account was hax0red to write:
<smacks Palador> Shoosh you! Dark Sun was the best campaign setting that has ever graced DnD since it's birth.

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I'm not saying it's a bad setting. I'm just saying that I lothe it with a dire passion.